Somewhere along the lines of history, people began being misinformed on what a "right to education" means.
It means, the government cannot interfere with its citizens using their resources on education.
When the state forces its citizens to fund state controlled schools, they are violating this right. The citizen no longer has the freedom to use his/her resources on education; the state interferes with this freedom and fully controls it.
Haha this is HILARIOUS. Please allow someone more intelligent to do the arguing for your side. Teachers CHOOSE to be teachers. Many of them (and I would know, as I have spoken to many of them) would not get good jobs elsewhere. Teacher get moderate salaries and benefits. They are able to buy houses, cars, support their families.
Also, I just graduated from public high school. I am happy. I have a good education that I got for extremely cheap and I got into a fantastic college (which is also extremely cheap and public btw).
This isn't slavery at all.
Why on Earth would people not be happy with this? And you are 100% wrong about people doing something better with their time than going to school. I would NEVER attempt to learn calculus if I had not been forced to, but I was, and now I got an A in the class, passesd the IB examination with a near perfect score, and will study statistics in college. You are obviously extremely ignorant of teenagers today if you think they would do other things with their time.
Your broken window fallacy has been fixed.
Travis, why are you here?
TravisWadman:Many of them (and I would know, as I have spoken to many of them) would not get good jobs elsewhere
How did you come to this conclusion?
TravisWadman:Why on Earth would people not be happy with this?
School violence, lack of achievement standards in public school, teachers sexually assualting children. There are dozens of reasons.
TravisWadman: And you are 100% wrong about people doing something better with their time than going to school.
Life lessons are better learned outside of the classroom. I promote education but it doesn't have to be at the cost of coercion.
TravisWadman:I would NEVER attempt to learn calculus if I had not been forced to, but I was, and now I got an A in the class, passesd the IB examination with a near perfect score, and will study statistics in college.
Personal experiences are not sufficient evidence. Its nice that you found something you like but that doesn't gain you the right to force others and expect the same outcome. They have a choice in the matter and you are taking it from them by doing such.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
Knight_of_BAAWA: TravisWadman:How on Earth would a 6 year old child educate itself? In a libertarian society more than any other, the parents would have to work, so unless you are expecting a 6 year old to teach itself how to read, write and do arithmatic, I think state schooling is a must. Not everyone can, or wants to go to private schools. Also, state schools provide thousands upon thousands of jobs.Public Service Announcement: tired, worn-out, refuted-to-death statist nonsense has no place here. Blatant assertions won't work here. Asking questions and showing a genuine interest in educating yourself will. If you will not do that, then I ask that you leave now, as you will not enjoy yourself here.
TravisWadman:How on Earth would a 6 year old child educate itself? In a libertarian society more than any other, the parents would have to work, so unless you are expecting a 6 year old to teach itself how to read, write and do arithmatic, I think state schooling is a must. Not everyone can, or wants to go to private schools. Also, state schools provide thousands upon thousands of jobs.
Not everyone can, or wants to go to private schools. Also, state schools provide thousands upon thousands of jobs.
Blatant assertions won't work here. Asking questions and showing a genuine interest in educating yourself will. If you will not do that, then I ask that you leave now, as you will not enjoy yourself here.
Are you serious? You call what I am saying "blatant assertions"? Have you not read what your fellows Austrians write? Here is an example: "If school was not compulsory, I suppose people would value school more."
I came here to learn and get educated, but I am finding out that Austrians have a distinct inability to convey their message without attacking the view points of others. In case you haven't noticed, NOBODY cares about what you guys have to say in the real world. Your ideas are based on unprovable assertions (that is what you are accusing me of) regarding economics and philosophy.
You say my nonsense has been refuted to death? Then why is this my first time asking the question? Hopefully the founders of the Austrian school have more sense than you or else I reckon there is a reason it hasn't had its place in history.
I have just come to learn what is supposedly "the truth" and you (a moderator of all people) attack me for asking a first time question. Am I just supposed to know the answers magically?
Self-victimization is getting pretty cliche these days.
" And you are 100% wrong about people doing something better with their time than going to school."
Clearly the learning attitude. Pompousity gets you +3 points around here.
Laughing Man:How did you come to this conclusion?
Like I said, I have spoken with several of my teachers. Example: a man with a PHD in political science. He hated working with public policy and his degree wouldn't get him a good job anywhere else, so he chose to be a teacher in a public school. He loves his job and often talks about how happy he is with the benefits he gets from working at my school.
Laughing Man:School violence, lack of achievement standards in public school, teachers sexually assualting children. There are dozens of reasons.
There is violence, lack of achievement standards, and sexual assualt in every corner of the world. If we should eliminate schools because of these reasons than I suppose we should eliminate bars, clubs, and some businesses as well? Oh and the entire country of the United States has a huge number of murders every year even with its police force that I am sure you Austrians hate so much. But hmm, I guess taking that all away will make people safer too huh?
Laughing Man:Personal experiences are not sufficient evidence. Its nice that you found something you like but that doesn't gain you the right to force others and expect the same outcome. They have a choice in the matter and you are taking it from them by doing such.
It is empirical evidence, sure it doesn't go for everyone, but it proves a point nonetheless.
You have to understand I am new to this. Does it not make sense that your assertions make NO sense to someone new trying to learn this stuff? I am going to questions everything.
Asking me to simply accept what you guys say as truth is the kind of ignorance that you all claim is the reason we accept things like the Federal Reserve today.
liberty student: Travis, why are you here?
read the last part of my above post...
TravisWadman: liberty student: Travis, why are you here? read the last part of my above post...
No, really. Why are you here? You don't appear to have done any reading, and most of your posts are completely ridiculous in a free market economics context (put aside AE for a moment), a libertarian ethics context or both.
KoB is right. You are continuing to make assertions, and since you haven't shown you know anything about AE (perhaps you will clear that up with your next response) I am long past tired of your criticizing the opinions of others, consistent with the Institute's scholars, or that the school cannot communicate or is somehow diminished intellectually by being a marginal public entity.
Thus far, you have been a pretty poor guest, because you haven't displayed any knowledge about economics or free markets, and yet you have been more than generous with your criticism.
So, let's validate your claims.
You've been here awhile now. What is AE? Can you tell us what Austrian Economics is based on? Do you know what praxeology is? LTV or STV? What have you read so far?
TravisWadman:Like I said, I have spoken with several of my teachers. Example: a man with a PHD in political science. He hated working with public policy and his degree wouldn't get him a good job anywhere else, so he chose to be a teacher in a public school. He loves his job and often talks about how happy he is with the benefits he gets from working at my school.
So from this single event you judge that every teacher would be unhappy if such an event were to transpire? How do you conclude to know the future emotions of strangers on a massive scale? Omniscient?
TravisWadman:There is violence, lack of achievement standards, and sexual assualt in every corner of the world.
Clearly not in home education to the degree that public education is.
TravisWadman: If we should eliminate schools because of these reasons than I suppose we should eliminate bars, clubs, and some businesses as well?
Before I label this a strawman...where do you get bars, clubs and business from getting rid of public education? Do you learn stats at bars & clubs?
TravisWadman:Oh and the entire country of the United States has a huge number of murders every year even with its police force that I am sure you Austrians hate so much. But hmm, I guess taking that all away will make people safer too huh?
Is this meant to make sense?
TravisWadman:It is empirical evidence, sure it doesn't go for everyone, but it proves a point nonetheless.
Its subjective personal experience, not evidence. If you like that color blue is that empirical evidence that blue is good?
TravisWadman:You have to understand I am new to this. Does it not make sense that your assertions make NO sense to someone new trying to learn this stuff? I am going to questions everything.
Your not trying to learn, you have some strange argument fetish in which you try to provoke people by insulting them to get a psychic lift out of it. I use to do it to Marxists but then I matured. Don't hide behind this 'I am here to learn but somehow you are all wrong, I know you are all wrong and I will continue to say you are all wrong' mentality. It is rather childish.
TravisWadman:Asking me to simply accept what you guys say as truth is the kind of ignorance that you all claim is the reason we accept things like the Federal Reserve today.
The point above has thus been proven.
I am here to get a feel for Austrian Economics before I delve into the lengthy books that, as I am sure you have realized, are contrary to everything in the world today. There is no free market, it doesn't exist. And I do know much about economics, but you guys are all saying that its not true. Why on Earth would I read a book saying everything I have learned about economics is not correct without first at least testing the subject?
For example, I just finished reading a book called the Money Men by a professor from UT and I used his research to prove my points, yet I was refuted. You in particular refuted my claim that Warren Harding was the worst president (I was joking by the way, I would say he is bad but not THE worst). I said that because I read a book that discussed how BAD of a president he was. Why the hell would I believe anything different if I haven't learned otherwise? I even looked up Warren Harding today to double check, and all I found was information on how TERRIBLE he was.
I admit I do NOT KNOW A THING about AE, thats why I came to this site. I bought a book by F.A Hayek if that makes you any happies, not that I care what you think in the slightest.
All I have gotten from this site is iconoclasm to the fullest extent and I no longer wonder why this movement had failed. Instead of teaching me you just blabber randomly while trying to use big words. I even asked for a reading list and got a link to the bookstore... lmao like I couldn't have done that on my own. Even the book I bought isn't introductory. If you want me to be able to justify my claims then try helping and tell me an AE book to read for beginners that explains why everything I have learned in two years of higher level economics classes is supposedly wrong
Like I said, I am not going to blindly accept anything
TravisWadman:I admit I do NOT KNOW A THING about AE, thats why I came to this site.
Then stop posting and start reading. Almost everything you have posted to date has been well below the normal level of discourse we expect outside the Newbies forum. No one wants to hear from you, when you admit you know nothing about AE, that this school of thought is a failure. Your opinion is not only unqualified, it is insulting.
TravisWadman:If you want me to be able to justify my claims then try helping and tell me an AE book to read for beginners that explains why everything I have learned in two years of higher level economics classes is supposedly wrong
Start reading the daily articles. Ask thoughtful questions. Almost every book in the bookstore is available online for free, and some in audio and video format.
You can start with watching this video.
But it would be very wise for you to lay off criticizing Austrians and AE on this site until you can prove you know something about it.
liberty student:But it would be very wise for you to lay off criticizing Austrians and AE on this site until you can prove you know something about it.
You hear that Krugman! Damn you! DAMMMMMN YOU!
Already seen that video... and I have been reading the articles for the past week. Sorry for not knowing these were high level discussions, I thought they were basic :(
I am a failure
TravisWadman: Already seen that video... and I have been reading the articles for the past week. Sorry for not knowing these were high level discussions, I thought they were basic :( I am a failure
Then why do you say you know absolutely nothing of AE? When you say that people will actually take your words as they mean. We're not Marxists divining the true definition of value here. If you are beyond laymen literature like Thomas Wood's Meltdown then might I suggest Rothbard's Man, Economy & State that is an in depth treatise on economics.
TravisWadman:Already seen that video... and I have been reading the articles for the past week. Sorry for not knowing these were high level discussions, I thought they were basic :(
They are basic. They assume a basic AE understanding. You keep posting without much knowledge of AE.
I cannot stress enough, read and ask questions without tossing out a bunch of your high school econ or preconceived ideas. If you are serious about not believing in things blindly, then please stop repeating the status quo.
AE is worth learning about. It gives economics context. AE is about understanding human action, and how the sum of many humans acting creates complex markets that are as sophisticated as any ecosystem.
AE is making a massive resurgence right now. It might even be on track to be the mainstream of economics in your lifetime.