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Monarchy vs. Democracy and The Decline of Civilization

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toban Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009 7:14 PM

Here's an article I wrote: Monarchy vs. Democracy and The Decline of Civilization

The article is mainly based on Hoppe's monarchy-democracy analysis, and his argument that democracy promotes rising time preferences and the destruction of society.

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ama gi replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 2:42 AM

With all due respect, your article is crap.  Crap like that is the main reason that the libertarian movement is ignored by the masses.

Firstly, I would like to point out that your article contradicts itself.  You state that:

"The existence of government weakens the process of capital accumulation. Under democratic rule, this weakening effect is considerably enhanced. Unless it is stopped, democracy will eventually raise time preferences to the point of capital consumption, and a self-reinforcing process of decivilization will be set in motion"

You also say:

"Despite incredible advances in knowledge and technology over the past few decades, living standards have actually declined"

How can "incredible advances in knowledge and technology" be reconciled with "the point of capital consumption"?

Your second (and far more visible) blunder is your glaringly inaccurate comparison between monarchy and democracy.  Such as:

“Now, year in and year out the American government expropriates more than 40 percent of the incomes of private producers, making even the economic burden imposed on slaves and serfs seem moderate in comparison.”  No, it doesn't, when you consider that modern capitalism makes the private producer far more productive than slaves and serfs of the dark ages.  Seriously, are we better off than them or not????

"Monarchy: Limited wars for settling territorial disputes. Battles fought by hired mercenaries with minimal bloodshed. Civilian life was unaffected by wars."  Civilian life unaffected by wars??

"Monarchy: Kings were considered judges, not legislators. Law was considered fixed and immutable (and the king’s own property rights rested on its validity). Legislation was unheard of."  Obviously, you know nothing about history.  Every heard of the Hammorabi code?  Every king in history has been (or tried to be) a legislator; that's kind of the point.

"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."

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Fluery replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 8:45 AM

ama gi:
"Monarchy: Limited wars for settling territorial disputes. Battles fought by hired mercenaries with minimal bloodshed. Civilian life was unaffected by wars."  Civilian life unaffected by wars??

I think he means compared to the "total war" that democracy of recent centuries has brought us.

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toban replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 10:37 AM

ama gi, I take it you are a mini-statist—that would go a long way in explaining your displeasure with my article. In my defense, I should first point out that my arguments are directly taken from Hoppe's book (Democracy—The God That Failed). I wanted to keep the article fairly short, so I didn't go into great length on any point. Hoppe's book is a much more thorough and convincing exposition of these arguments.

Capital consumption and technological advance can co-exist. Inventors still create new products even if the state is intervening like crazy. My whole point is that we haven't seen any significant improvement in living standards from the computer and information revolutions. The state is "soaking" up all the wealth.

Next, in the Hoppe quote where he compares the burden of serfs to modern workers, he is not saying that they were better off than us. He's just pointing out that the modern democratic state takes a much larger percentage than monarchies could ever dream of.

Seriously, civilians were completely undisturbed by monarchical wars. People would often go and watch the battles. Hoppe elaborates quite a bit on this interesting fact in the book.

On legislation, again see Hoppe's book where he extensively defends this point.

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ama gi replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 2:10 PM

From Toban's article:

War
  • Monarchy: Limited wars for settling territorial disputes. Battles fought by hired mercenaries with minimal bloodshed. Civilian life was unaffected by wars.
  • Democracy: Total wars fought for ideological goals (”Liberty”, “Democracy”, “fighting terrorism”, etc.) and thus open-ended and grotesquely brutal. Civilian life is heavily disrupted by wars, not only because of domestic burdens (taxation, regulation and conscription), but because civilians are no longer considered “off limits” to combatants."

Were not the Crusades an example of "total wars fought for ideological goals"?  And the Crusades were fought by monarchies rather than democracies, were they not?

Again, I think Toban needs to learn some history before he spouts off with dogma like this.

"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 2:24 PM
Fluery:
I think he means compared to the "total war" that democracy of recent centuries has brought us.
There were wars before the french revolution which were as brutal as 'modern' wars.

Notice that the first world war was started by a catholic monarchy...known as the 'austro hungarian' empire.

I'm not saying democracy is any good - just pointing out that 'democratic' totalitarianism and 'monarchical' totalitarianism are just two instances of totalitarianism.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Sphairon replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 2:32 PM

In any science of human action, you will almost always find exceptions to a rule. As for war, you could also name the Thirty Years' War. Not all monarchic wars were small in scale and without collateral damage.

However, Toban and Hoppe are talking about general tendencies, not exceptions. It may have a dogmatic vibe here and there, but they are still on to something.


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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 2:35 PM
In any science of human action, you will almost always find exceptions to a rule.
LOL. Hoppe's views on monarchy are not science but propaganda.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 2:39 PM
Here's another 'exception' for your conservative biased non-rule.

Do you mind telling me what sort of government did tsarist russia have ? And...why is it that the industrial revolution didn't start there, but in more 'democratic' western europe ?

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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was the USSR stalin's own little fief for a while? and germany hitlers (post-the democracy)?

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Juan:
In any science of human action, you will almost always find exceptions to a rule.
LOL. Hoppe's views on monarchy are not science but propaganda.

I find it interesting that Hoppe is embellished quite a bit by those who oppose him.  While he certainly injects a considerable amount of opinion, I hardly see how half of his views on monarchy are controversial, especially since radical libertarians have been opposing democracy well before Hoppe's D:TGTF. 

Then again, I've heard mostly lectures from him, so I can't speak for his books just yet.    

Any sensible person who reads Hoppe, or anyone else for that matter, would realize when to ignore speculation, such as that war was somehow less severe with monarchies versus democracies.  It certainly was different, just as how war was different at the time of WWII versus today with the prospect of full nuclear war, but not "better". 

"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict

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toban replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 3:30 PM

Of course, these are not absolute political laws, but only tendencies. All Hoppe is saying is that the incentive structure is much healthier for a private owner. Surely the wars of the 20th century are without parallel in terms of destructiveness.

Hoppe quotes Michael Howard (War in European Civilization, pp. 75-76):

Once the state ceased to be regarded as 'property' of dynastic princes, and became instead the instrument of powerful forces dedicated to such abstract concepts as Liberty, or Nationality, or Revolution, which enabled large numbers of the population to see in that state the embodiment of some absolute Good for which no price was too high, no sacrifice too great to pay; then the "temperate and indecisive contests" of the rococo age appeared as absurd anarchronisms.
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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 3:38 PM
All Hoppe is saying is that the incentive structure is much healthier for a private owner.
But a monarchy is just a 'privately owned' CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE. In your mind the mafia could be described as 'privately owned' ?

Now, get this : ownership entails homesteading and voluntary exchange. So the label 'private' when talking about government is nonsense.

Monarchical governments are just gangs of thieves and murderers, like any government. End of story.

Another little historical note. You know what brought about the french revolution ? It was the incredible STUPIDITY and GREED of the french monarchy. Great example of the 'efficiency' or 'private' government.

But never let facts get in the way of some good propaganda.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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And after the revolution came The Great Terror. W00t!

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Sphairon replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 3:51 PM

Juan:
Here's another 'exception' for your conservative biased non-rule.

Praxeology is the science of human action. If the human acting as king happens to be a psycopathic, war-mongering misanthrope with an extremely high time preference, the restraining effects of monarchic governance may not moderate him either.

Fortunately, that is not the point. The point is that ceteris paribus, rulers will be more inclined to exploit their subjects in a democratic system than in a monarchic one due to the unique qualities of these systems.

If you are convinced otherwise, make your case. I hope you do not dislike this theory just because it seems "conservative" to you.


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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 4:15 PM
Knight:
And after the revolution came The Great Terror. W00t!
Is that meant as an objection to what I said ?

Also, I should point out that the french monarchy ruled its serfs aided by the catholic church (theocracy) and the oligarchy. So again the idea that the french government was something owned by a single guy doesn't match reality.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan:

Also, I should point out that the french monarchy ruled its serfs aided by the catholic church (theocracy) and the oligarchy. So again the idea that the french government was something owned by a single guy doesn't match reality.

And who sided with the serfs in overthrowing the ancien regime? The parish priests apart of the first estate did side with the third estate in bringing about a constitional monarchy.

The French monarchy was anything but a theocracy. If anything, it was the aristocracy that controlled the clergy, not the other way around.

Abstract liberty, like other mere abstractions, is not to be found.

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 4:22 PM
Sphairon:
Fortunately, that is not the point. The point is that ceteris paribus, rulers will be more inclined to exploit their subjects in a democratic system than in a monarchic one due to the unique qualities of these systems.
An irrelevant and unproven point. It's possible for a monarchy to be dictatorial and for a democracy to respect property rights. It all depends on how much abuse the serfs are willing to take.
If you are convinced otherwise, make your case.
I already did. I guess you were not around when other people would repeat Hoppe's 'theory' just like you do. Anyway, check the archives.
I hope you do not dislike this theory just because it seems "conservative" to you.
I dislike the non-theory because it's indeed mostly conservative propaganda and idle speculation.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 4:27 PM
And who sided with the serfs in overthrowing the ancien regime? The parish priests apart of the first estate did side with the third estate in bringing about a constitional monarchy.
Well, maybe some did, whereas the top commanders of the church were friendly to the king and the rest of the establishment ?

Also the church does have a commie wing no ? Maybe some of the parish priests were not real fans of private property after all ?
The French monarchy was anything but a theocracy.
It was partly a theocracy.
If anything, it was the aristocracy that controlled the clergy,
Uh oh. Or maybe the oligarchy and the clergy were mostly the same group of people.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Knight:
And after the revolution came The Great Terror. W00t!
Juan:
Is that meant as an objection to what I said ?
It's meant to be a statement of fact.

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 4:33 PM
Well yes. And a few years after the revolution came emperor Bonaparte =] - Who was friendly to the king of russia...for a while.

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Juan:
Well, maybe some did, whereas the top commanders of the church were friendly to the king and the rest of the establishment ?

Those top commanders of the church being thrusted there by aristocracy for their own goals; therefore, my assertion that the aristocracy controlled the clergy, esspecially the episcopates

 

Juan:
Also the church does have a commie wing no ? Maybe some of the parish priests were not real fans of private property after all ?
 

We are speaking of the 1780s here, not the present era. 

 

Juan:
The French monarchy was anything but a theocracy.
It was partly a theocracy.

The upper clergy was packed by the aristocracy to support the ends of the aristocracy, and it wielded very little power in France as well. Although the clergy were the first estate, they still held very little power after Louis XIV.

 

Juan:
If anything, it was the aristocracy that controlled the clergy,
Uh oh. Or maybe the oligarchy and the clergy were mostly the same group of people.

And I explained why that was prior.

Abstract liberty, like other mere abstractions, is not to be found.

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Sphairon replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 4:45 PM

Byzantine:

Also, the Dark Ages weren't.  There was a great deal of scholarship, literature, visual and performing arts, and trade, free of the brutal hegemony of the Roman Empire.

Still, people appeared to be somewhat conservative back then. That's smelly.


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Byzantine:
Bonaparte was a dictator, not a monarch.

aren't monarch's just a kind of dictator?

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 4:56 PM
byzantine:
Bonaparte was a dictator, not a monarch.
Right. Kings on the other hand get their jobs as murderous parasites by 'consent' - they dictate nothing but are loved by their subhuman serfs.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 4:57 PM
aren't monarch's just a kind of dictator?
Ha. You beat me to it =]

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 6:17 PM
the lord has spoken

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Juan:
the lord has spoken

As found in the Web 1.0 Testament;
Book of Wiki, Chapter 1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy


vs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_monarchy

vs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship


Hardly a new objection, considering every monarch is not a de-facto dictator, just how every democracy is not really a democracy. 

I'm sure the Queen of England is currently ruling Britian with an iron fist & sending dissenters to the gulags while Parliament is scrambling to defend the rights of it's citizens from her overwhelming armies.

Er...

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 6:33 PM
Hardly new objection, considering every monarch is not a de-facto dictator. I'm sure the Queen of England is currently ruling Britian with an iron fist & sending dissenters to the gulags
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make ? At any rate, I'm sure that all the property the queen of england has is stolen property - Or do you think she and the other royal parasites made their money by, say, running Intel ?

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 6:39 PM
As I've said before, replacing monarchy with democracy is replacing a government you can overthrow with a government you can't overthrow.
Oh come on. You can replace one monarch with another monarch but monarchy and all the government parasites remain.

Yes, democracy is worse in that some of the subjects may actually believe that they are the government, but in reality democracy is just a form of oligarchy and so is monarchy.

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Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan:
Hardly new objection, considering every monarch is not a de-facto dictator. I'm sure the Queen of England is currently ruling Britian with an iron fist & sending dissenters to the gulags
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make ? At any rate, I'm sure that all the property the queen of england has is stolen property - Or do you think she and the other royal parasites made their money by, say, running Intel ?



My point was that, technically, the Queen of England is a monarch, yet holds no real power (a ceremonial figurehead), versus someone like Bonaparte who was a dictator, or an actual Monarch with power that has the capacity to convert their monarchy into a dictatorship.

As for what is the Queen's property & what isn't, I wouldn't know, it's probably stolen, just like any other monarch took on property during the process of self-anointment or inheriting the throne. 

It would be interesting to read up on an long-term maintained studies of property ownership to determine that, methinks.

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scineram replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 6:56 PM

Byzantine:
replacing monarchy with democracy is replacing a government you can overthrow with a government you can't overthrow.

Beautiful. This must be made into a proverb.

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 7:05 PM
Nitroadict:
My point was that, technically, the Queen of England is a monarch, yet holds no real power (a ceremonial figurehead),
Fine, but I thought we were talking about monarchy as the government of the land, like it was at some time in France, Russia, Austria, etc.

It would be interesting to read up on an long-term maintained studies of property ownership to determine that, methinks.
Just found this : I don't feel like reading it right now, but if you do and find something interesting, do tell. http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/

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Juan replied on Sun, Jun 21 2009 7:13 PM
That is true so far as it goes. But monarchy is self-limiting, in that the parasitic nature of government (a tiny minority of the populace) is clear.
There's no reason for monarchies to be small governments. That's just an ad hoc assumption of yours.
Democratic states can never be overthrown, backed as they are by the will of the majority.
They are not backed by will - they are backed by guns. Oh wait. People pay taxes voluntarily ?

Actually, a consistent application of democracy leads to libertarianism since no 'democratic government' can claim power over people who don't agree to be ruled.

"Governments...deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, " and all that.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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