Ron Paul isn't very accurate on the issue of illegal immigration. There's also a lot of myths that go around about it, like them not paying taxes, they DO pay their taxes, the most people that don't pay their taxes are wealthy Americans with swiss bank accounts.
Ron Paul is fuzzy on several issues. It's part of the job of a politician.
But don't think paying taxes is heroic. Funding wars and welfare is not the sign of an advanced society, it is the sign of a primitive one.
Democracy for Breakfast: Ron Paul isn't very accurate on the issue of illegal immigration. There's also a lot of myths that go around about it, like them not paying taxes, they DO pay their taxes, the most people that don't pay their taxes are wealthy Americans with swiss bank accounts.
about Ron Paul: dunno
about them paying or not, dunno.
What I'm saying is that I can't discuss those parts of your post, from ignorance. I am really here just to ask you for some info about the last thing you said:
Can you please post a link that gives the evidence that most people that don't pay their taxes are wealthy Americans etc?
My humble blog
It's easy to refute an argument if you first misrepresent it. William Keizer
I wouldn't consider Ron Paul any kind of authority on anything.
The whole 'ideal' of illegal immigration is wonky, at best. Immigration is just 'moving from one place to another'. Which is essential to liberty, in my opinion. To be able to move, wherever, whenever, so long as you aren't invading property rights.
Ron Paul wants to give NO amnesty to 10+ million people, and forcibly remove them from the country. He wants to 'initiate' the use of physical force upon a people who, for all intensive purposes, wanted to live a freer life, a people who haven't initiated its use against the "legal" population. All because they are breaking the law? [insert plenty of curse words here]
You observe, but you do not see.
Lawsome: Democracy for Breakfast: Ron Paul isn't very accurate on the issue of illegal immigration. There's also a lot of myths that go around about it, like them not paying taxes, they DO pay their taxes, the most people that don't pay their taxes are wealthy Americans with swiss bank accounts. I wouldn't consider Ron Paul any kind of authority on anything. The whole 'ideal' of illegal immigration is wonky, at best. Immigration is just 'moving from one place to another'. Which is essential to liberty, in my opinion. To be able to move, wherever, whenever, so long as you aren't invading property rights. Ron Paul wants to give NO amnesty to 10+ million people, and forcibly remove them from the country. He wants to 'initiate' the use of physical force upon a people who, for all intensive purposes, wanted to live a freer life, a people who haven't initiated its use against the "legal" population. All because they are breaking the law? [insert plenty of curse words here]
Well the stigma I have against illegal immigrants, is the whole lot of the ones coming from Mexico. They generally bring drugs and crime to the Southern parts of CA. Also, Spanish will be the official language of the U.S in the year 2020 if this continues. That is the takeover of another culture, a huge loss of American Sovereignity.
Also, Americans have to compete harder for jobs against illegal immigrants since they can work for less. They get all the welfare benefits such as hospitals, general welfare, Social Security, ect and some get it for free without paying for it.
Southern CA is a WRECK, you'll see that there's a lot of poverty,illiteracy, gangs, and drugs.
Also, I really don't mean this in a racist sense, but I have not met any hispanic that isn't heavily involved in drugs or other problems, and are generally shitty member of a community. Maybe its just where I live, but all the Mexicans here do drugs, and the females get pregnant at the age of 13. I feel like it would be an insult of these were the kinds of people that dominated our culture.
It could just be where I live(Connecticut) however, I haven't met any that have actually come here for our better "freedoms" and "life", but to do drug business and because its easy to come here illegally.
RP is a Republican.
Most of the guys that I have dealt with are genuinely good guys who have sacrificed a great deal to get here. From the discussions with the fellas that I have worked with, getting here is not easy. To get across the border they have to pay a "coyote" which can amount to thousands of dollars. Don't forget in mexico a thousand dollars is an astronomical amount of money for the average Mexican. Once accross the border, many have to hike accross some of the most desolate places in North America. I also have some buddies who like to go hunt ranches in West Texas. They have come back with second hand stories about shootings in the back country that no one will ever know about. Once the "illegals" reach a city or town they have to arrange for transportion to where ever they think the jobs are. Its not "easy" by any strech of the imagination. Some of these guys do become corrupted once they get here and find out how to game the system, but by and large these are good hard working people.
We as americans have created the so called immigration problem with our welfare state. Minimum wage make certain jobs impossible to fill legally. This creates a demand for illegal labor. Welfare assistance has created a domestic workforce that is inflexible and nonmobile. This has created a demand for labor outside the welfare system that is willing to travel thousands of miles to find work. There are countless things that government and good intentions has done to discourage americans from working and encouraging "illegals" to cross the border to work. So to blame the illegals for any problems is ,in my mind, insane. These guys come from poverty that is almost nonexistant in the states. They are attempting to better themselves and support their families. They are doing exactly what made america great. Working and trying to be productive. We should take some notes.
Everyone should be an immigrant once in their life as a lesson in humility. IMO, the anti-immigrant (xenophobic) attitude is synonymous with statism.
The state makes everything into a zero sum game. And so people begin to see any change as a lose-lose situation for them, unless someone else is being punished or deprived.
A free marketer should welcome new labour resources into the market, not see them as a disadvantage.
Southern: Most of the guys that I have dealt with are genuinely good guys who have sacrificed a great deal to get here. From the discussions with the fellas that I have worked with, getting here is not easy. To get across the border they have to pay a "coyote" which can amount to thousands of dollars. Don't forget in mexico a thousand dollars is an astronomical amount of money for the average Mexican. Once accross the border, many have to hike accross some of the most desolate places in North America. I also have some buddies who like to go hunt ranches in West Texas. They have come back with second hand stories about shootings in the back country that no one will ever know about. Once the "illegals" reach a city or town they have to arrange for transportion to where ever they think the jobs are. Its not "easy" by any strech of the imagination. Some of these guys do become corrupted once they get here and find out how to game the system, but by and large these are good hard working people.
Makes you wonder what Mexico is like, if people are willing to go through what you describe to escape it and work below minimum wage here.
liberty student: Everyone should be an immigrant once in their life as a lesson in humility. IMO, the anti-immigrant (xenophobic) attitude, is synonymous with statism. The state makes everything into a zero sum game. And so people begin to see any change, as a lose-lose situation for them, unless someone else is being punished or deprived. A free marketer, should welcome new labour resources into the market, not see them as a disadvantage.
Everyone should be an immigrant once in their life as a lesson in humility. IMO, the anti-immigrant (xenophobic) attitude, is synonymous with statism.
The state makes everything into a zero sum game. And so people begin to see any change, as a lose-lose situation for them, unless someone else is being punished or deprived.
A free marketer, should welcome new labour resources into the market, not see them as a disadvantage.
The funny thing is that I am a bit xenophobic, lol. Or maybe its not so funny. From a cultural point of veiw I see a great deal of danger is the mass influx of people from Latin America. I hate to see local cultures slowly be replaced. The South has seen a great deal of cultural change over the past 60 years. Some of it good, but much of it bad. But the guys who come here are simply trying to make the best out a situation that is controled by elites in the US and Mexican governments. I refuse to blame them for doing what is best for themselves. I think that the immigration discussion is this coutry needs to focus on those who are truly responisble for the "illegal" problem. That would be our government for creating the environment that encourages the mass influx of workers.
Smiling Dave: Makes you wonder what Mexico is like, if people are willing to go through what you describe to escape it and work below minimum wage here.
Of course my information is going to be a bit biased. I have gotten it all from the people who were so fed up with Mexico that they risked life and limb to get here. But the general concensus is that it is difficult the find permanent work, the police and government, in general, is highly corrupt. Stories about extortion by the cops is common. But strangely enough, almost all that I have spoken with express a desire to return to Mexico after they have earned enough money.
Southern:I hate to see local cultures slowly be replaced.
Change is inevitable. Embrace it. Live life.
liberty student:Everyone should be an immigrant once in their life as a lesson in humility.
I'm not for forcing anyone, but doing this helped me immensely in my life. Emigrate for a year or two, anyone will learn much.
Criminals, there ought to be a law.
Criminals there ought to be a whole lot more. Bon Scott.
Southern: liberty student: Everyone should be an immigrant once in their life as a lesson in humility. IMO, the anti-immigrant (xenophobic) attitude, is synonymous with statism. The state makes everything into a zero sum game. And so people begin to see any change, as a lose-lose situation for them, unless someone else is being punished or deprived. A free marketer, should welcome new labour resources into the market, not see them as a disadvantage. The funny thing is that I am a bit xenophobic, lol. Or maybe its not so funny. From a cultural point of veiw I see a great deal of danger is the mass influx of people from Latin America. I hate to see local cultures slowly be replaced. The South has seen a great deal of cultural change over the past 60 years. Some of it good, but much of it bad. But the guys who come here are simply trying to make the best out a situation that is controled by elites in the US and Mexican governments. I refuse to blame them for doing what is best for themselves. I think that the immigration discussion is this coutry needs to focus on those who are truly responisble for the "illegal" problem. That would be our government for creating the environment that encourages the mass influx of workers.
So you a native american that still lives the way before Columbus? Cause if not, you belong to a culture that replaced an previous local one in a drastical fashion,
liberty student: Southern:I hate to see local cultures slowly be replaced. Change is inevitable. Embrace it. Live life.
I do recognize that change is inevitable and I certainly dont wish for a static world that is frozen in time. But I think it is reasonable to admire the different cultures around the world and mourn the loss of a unique people or way of life. Lol good lord I sound like a raging liberal.
Also, not all change is good. Whatever "good" means to you or I.
For all the cultural/neighborhoods destroyed arguments... these are not problems with immigration but problems with a concept of property rights."destroyed" neighborhoods are that way because you do not own that property. If a bunch of dirty drug usin minorities buy such a property and turn it into a slum that is their right.
You are absolutely right. The cultural group to which I belong did indeed agressively and violently replace Native Americans. But keep in mind my concern is not just for "Southern" culture. It also bothers me that there is virturally nothing left the native culture. I like the fact that there are countless different cultures all over.
Democracy for Breakfast:Ron Paul isn't very accurate on the issue of illegal immigration
It's not that RP isn't "accurate", he's just incorrect.
Democracy for Breakfast:There's also a lot of myths that go around about it, like them not paying taxes, they DO pay their taxes, the most people that don't pay their taxes are wealthy Americans with swiss bank accounts.
Ummmm, no. The fact of the matter is that immigrant workers are very unlikely to pay taxes, even if they're properly documented. There is nothing wrong with this IMO, the problem is that anyone does have to pay taxes. As far as taxes and/or free-riding is concerned, consider:
============================
David Z
"The issue is always the same, the government or the market. There is no third solution."
Byzantine: Southern:From a cultural point of veiw I see a great deal of danger is the mass influx of people from Latin America. I hate to see local cultures slowly be replaced. The South has seen a great deal of cultural change over the past 60 years. Some of it good, but much of it bad. And therein lies the problem: 1 million Mexicans constitutes 'vibrancy,' 'diversity,' 'global community,' and all the other feel-good tags SWPLs use to congratulate themselves for hiring them to mow their lawns. 10 million Mexicans, that's Mexico. And Mexico sucks. Same for any other group you care to name. The idea that all cultures are equal, that all people are just interchangeable cogs who can be picked up and put down into square holes or round holes wherever multinational corporations and governments want them is just anti-human and anti-reality. Peter Brimelow has a good quote: if war is the health of the State, immigration is its viagra.
Southern:From a cultural point of veiw I see a great deal of danger is the mass influx of people from Latin America. I hate to see local cultures slowly be replaced. The South has seen a great deal of cultural change over the past 60 years. Some of it good, but much of it bad.
And therein lies the problem: 1 million Mexicans constitutes 'vibrancy,' 'diversity,' 'global community,' and all the other feel-good tags SWPLs use to congratulate themselves for hiring them to mow their lawns. 10 million Mexicans, that's Mexico.
And Mexico sucks.
Same for any other group you care to name. The idea that all cultures are equal, that all people are just interchangeable cogs who can be picked up and put down into square holes or round holes wherever multinational corporations and governments want them is just anti-human and anti-reality.
Peter Brimelow has a good quote: if war is the health of the State, immigration is its viagra.
That is the danger that I see. Mexico is Mexico primarialy becuase of the people and thier culture. As bad and complacent as Americans are when it comes to corruption and encroachment on our liberties. Mexico is much, much worse. This is true of many third world countries. I veiw those cultures as interesting, but I do not wish to live or raise a family there and prefer to keep them at arms length. I guess that is where my aversion to what is happening in the US comes from.
Dont forget the role government has played in the destruction of neighborhoods. The use of the school systems to break down cultural and racial barriers. The construction of public housing in and near formerly middle class neiborhoods. Along with the use of tax codes and labor law to deny people their right of association.
Doesn't look like anyone wants to touch this with a ten-foot pole:
Democracy for Breakfast: Well the stigma I have against illegal immigrants, is the whole lot of the ones coming from Mexico. They generally bring drugs and crime to the Southern parts of CA. Also, Spanish will be the official language of the U.S in the year 2020 if this continues. That is the takeover of another culture, a huge loss of American Sovereignity.
The drug war, and its concomitant violence is a natural and predictable outcome of prohibition, which is an affront to liberty everywhere. Get rid of the prohibition, gets rid of the monopoly prices and drug-cartel profits, and the drug "problem" will drastically reduce.
Democracy for Breakfast: Also, Americans have to compete harder for jobs against illegal immigrants since they can work for less.
Also, Americans have to compete harder for jobs against illegal immigrants since they can work for less.
Everyone wants low prices for everything, except for their own particular wage. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Deal with it. This is fundamentally, a retarded argument. If nobody ever worked harder, or smarter, or cheaper, a DVD player would still cost $800 (or more likely, DVDs wouldn't even exist and we'd be churning butter by hand and tilling soil with Grandpa's femur).
Democracy for Breakfast: They get all the welfare benefits such as hospitals, general welfare, Social Security, ect and some get it for free without paying for it.
They get all the welfare benefits such as hospitals, general welfare, Social Security, ect and some get it for free without paying for it.
Nobody gets SS unless via fraud, in which case the immigrant is not the problem, the fraud is the problem. Most welfare programs require some amount of documentation, i.e., SSN, ID etc. The welfare benefits, well, you could easily make an argument against welfare. if we stop providing these things on a welfare basis, the incentive to come here and "abuse" the system would be very, very small. No system to exploit = no exploitation.
But also, if you think people are risking life and limb to crawl through a f*cking desert on their hands and knees, just so they can get a free trip to the hospital if they break their leg falling off a ladder, you're mistaken.
Democracy for Breakfast: Southern CA is a WRECK, you'll see that there's a lot of poverty,illiteracy, gangs, and drugs.
So is Detroit, and we don't have the convenient scapegoat of "Mexicans".
Democracy for Breakfast: Also, I really don't mean this in a racist sense, but I have not met any hispanic that isn't heavily involved in drugs or other problems, and are generally shitty member of a community. Maybe its just where I live, but all the Mexicans here do drugs, and the females get pregnant at the age of 13. I feel like it would be an insult of these were the kinds of people that dominated our culture.
That's about as racist as it gets, dude. Seriously.
David Z: The most people who don't pay taxes (not "their taxes") are poor & middle class, most of whom pay zero net taxes, and many of whom are actually net recipients of taxes.
Could you provide a source for this, please?
Byzantine: David Z: That's about as racist as it gets, dude. Seriously. The issue is not whether it's "racist," whatever that means. The issue is whether it's incorrect.
David Z: That's about as racist as it gets, dude. Seriously.
The issue is not whether it's "racist," whatever that means. The issue is whether it's incorrect.
Hair splitting. It's collectivistic. So it is racist and incorrect.
From my experience it is incorrect and misses the real dangers to our society. All the things that he has described is present in most white communities and most obvious substance abuse problem is alcohol. The real issue is whether they are more accepting of overbearing and corrupt government, what their concept of rights are, and whether all of this is compatable with our population. When you compare Mexico to the US I think there are some real differences and problems.
Smiling Dave: David Z: The most people who don't pay taxes (not "their taxes") are poor & middle class, most of whom pay zero net taxes, and many of whom are actually net recipients of taxes. Could you provide a source for this, please?
Enjoy:
This is not true. Yes, they do speak Spanish and very few learn English early on, but there is no threat to "U.S. sovereignty". The majority of Mexicans left Mexico because they disagree with their government's policies. I'm sure that very few would accept Mexican rule in Southern California, so the entire idea that immigration is a threat to a State's sovereignty is false.
This is true, only because of minimum wage. Increasing the labor pool is only an ingredient to increasing productivity.
Another reason to get rid of government welfare, but not restrict immigration.
This is a hyperbole. I live in San Diego and crime in San Diego is relatively low compared to crime where there are less Mexicans living. And, crime does not stem from a greater amount of immigrants, just a greater amount of poverty, and that is not caused by immigration... it's caused by government.
Also, I really don't mean this in a racist sense, but I have not met any hispanic that isn't heavily involved in drugs or other problems, and are generally shitty member of a community.
This is false. It would be like me saying that I've never met a white person who isn't fat.
In any case, if you're interested Jesús Huerta de Soto wrote an article on immigration from a libertarian's perspective.
Jonathan M. F. Catalán: Southern CA is a WRECK, you'll see that there's a lot of poverty,illiteracy, gangs, and drugs. This is a hyperbole. I live in San Diego and crime in San Diego is relatively low compared to crime where there are less Mexicans living. And, crime does not stem from a greater amount of immigrants, just a greater amount of poverty, and that is not caused by immigration... it's caused by government.
Indeed. I also live in Southern California. Currently I live in Orange County. I used to live in LA County. Communities in southern CA have problems but it's hardly a "wreck."
Jonathan M. F. Catalán: This is not true. Yes, they do speak Spanish and very few learn English early on, but there is no threat to "U.S. sovereignty". The majority of Mexicans left Mexico because they disagree with their government's policies. I'm sure that very few would accept Mexican rule in Southern California, so the entire idea that immigration is a threat to a State's sovereignty is false.
Things maybe different in Southern Cal and there maybe a bunch of political refugees there, but over here on the other coast I get a completely different impression. These fellas here are intensely proud of being Mexican. They say they are here to make money and then return home to their families. I fact there has been a significant flight of workers back to Mexico since the construction market has collapsed.
As far as the threat that is posed to the border states and US integrity, we need look a little at history. It wasent long ago that all the the American Southwest was Mexican territory. At the time the area was sparsely populated and the Mexican government encouraged Americans to emigrate and settle the region. Seemed like a good idea at the time. It wasent long however untill the population was predominately American and it wasent long after that till the new populace began to advocate for independance from Mexico.
Dont underestimate the strength of blood ties. Mexican nationalism is a powerful force and when the US begins to show signs of weakness, it will become a major problem.
David Z: Could you provide a source for this, please? Enjoy: Estimates suggest that this year 47% of all households will pay no federal income tax. [via CNN] Approximately 1/3 of all American taxpayers have zero or negative tax liability. [via TaxFoundation.org] The top 1% of income earners pay 28% of all federal taxes (39% of all income taxes) [via FactCheck.org] The top 20% of income earners pay approximately 80% of all income taxes. [via Tax Policy Center]
Thank you.
liberty student: Byzantine: David Z: That's about as racist as it gets, dude. Seriously. The issue is not whether it's "racist," whatever that means. The issue is whether it's incorrect. Hair splitting. It's collectivistic. So it is racist and incorrect.
And? Is it un-libertarian to admit when you dont like certain people (be they brown, white, whatever) living around you? I doubt Juan Pablo in Mexico would like it very much if his town become heavily populated with white American retirees.
And for those of you who are denying socal's 'problems', youre in denial.
Lies!! I had a great time there and mexican girls found me way more attractive than brazilian girls, and for that they will have my eternal gratitude.
Southern: Things maybe different in Southern Cal and there maybe a bunch of political refugees there, but over here on the other coast I get a completely different impression. These fellas here are intensely proud of being Mexican. They say they are here to make money and then return home to their families. I fact there has been a significant flight of workers back to Mexico since the construction market has collapsed.
I'm still not sure how that is a threat to "our sovereignty".
As far as the threat that is posed to the border states and US integrity, we need look a little at history. It wasent long ago that all the the American Southwest was Mexican territory.
Over 150 years ago. There is no Mexican nationalism in what used to be Mexican territory. There are Mexicans who are proud of being Mexican, but there are few Mexicans who would like to see a Mexican-ruled Southwestern United States.
At the time the area was sparsely populated and the Mexican government encouraged Americans to emigrate and settle the region. Seemed like a good idea at the time. It wasent long however untill the population was predominately American and it wasent long after that till the new populace began to advocate for independance from Mexico.
You're missing some key points of this history. The United States is markedly less tyrannical than the current Mexican government. The U.S. economy is larger than Mexico's. In terms of economic rights, they are far more respected in the United States than in Mexico. The same incentives are not in place to catalyze some sort of Mexican revolution.
Let's not turn realism on its head.
sicsempertyrannis: And? Is it un-libertarian to admit when you dont like certain people (be they brown, white, whatever) living around you? I doubt Juan Pablo in Mexico would like it very much if his town become heavily populated with white American retirees. And for those of you who are denying socal's 'problems', youre in denial.
What's un-libertarian is letting your racism justify using force to restrict the liberty of those who you dislike.
Jonathan M. F. Catalán: Southern: Things maybe different in Southern Cal and there maybe a bunch of political refugees there, but over here on the other coast I get a completely different impression. These fellas here are intensely proud of being Mexican. They say they are here to make money and then return home to their families. I fact there has been a significant flight of workers back to Mexico since the construction market has collapsed. I'm still not sure how that is a threat to "our sovereignty". As far as the threat that is posed to the border states and US integrity, we need look a little at history. It wasent long ago that all the the American Southwest was Mexican territory. Over 150 years ago. There is no Mexican nationalism in what used to be Mexican territory. There are Mexicans who are proud of being Mexican, but there are few Mexicans who would like to see a Mexican-ruled Southwestern United States. At the time the area was sparsely populated and the Mexican government encouraged Americans to emigrate and settle the region. Seemed like a good idea at the time. It wasent long however untill the population was predominately American and it wasent long after that till the new populace began to advocate for independance from Mexico. You're missing some key points of this history. The United States is markedly less tyrannical than the current Mexican government. The U.S. economy is larger than Mexico's. In terms of economic rights, they are far more respected in the United States than in Mexico. The same incentives are not in place to catalyze some sort of Mexican revolution. Let's not turn realism on its head.
If I gave the impression that it is an immediate threat then I appologize it is not what I intended. But the idea that because today the idea of spliting the American Southwest from the US as either an independant nation or reunification with Mexico is marginal at best does not mean that in the future when certain circumstances change that it is not possible. One of the things to make this possible is for the character of the population to change from those with strong cultural, religious, and historical ties to the US into a population with cultural, religious, and historical ties to Mexico. When left to their own devices people form associations with those that they feel a kin to. Like I said certain prerequisites must be made and this is just one. I think some others will be changing in my lifetime. Just to reiterate I'm not talking about today or ever 10 years from now.
Southern: If I gave the impression that it is an immediate threat then I appologize it is not what I intended. But the idea that because today the idea of spliting the American Southwest from the US as either an independant nation or reunification with Mexico is marginal at best does not mean that in the future when certain circumstances change that it is not possible. One of the things to make this possible is for the character of the population to change from those with strong cultural, religious, and historical ties to the US into a population with cultural, religious, and historical ties to Mexico. When left to their own devices people form associations with those that they feel a kin to. Like I said certain prerequisites must be made and this is just one. I think some others will be changing in my lifetime. Just to reiterate I'm not talking about today or ever 10 years from now.
It would only make sense if secession from the United States and incorporation into Mexico provided economic advantages, which is unlikely. Even then, if the population of an area wanted to secede I don't see the disadvantage to that (and, in any case, it would be secession to form a sovereign nation, not "return" to Mexico). Sorry, but I think that restricting immigration on the basis that in the far future it may cause secession is not justified.
sicsempertyrannis:And?
I said what I said. Did you not understand it?
sicsempertyrannis:Is it un-libertarian to admit when you dont like certain people (be they brown, white, whatever) living around you?
Heck no.
sicsempertyrannis:I doubt Juan Pablo in Mexico would like it very much if his town become heavily populated with white American retirees.
But you don't know that. You're just assuming it. The way racists assume that people of a certain race or nationality are not individuals, but part of some collective. It would be like someone assuming you are a liberal or a welfare recipient or a warmonger or a cowboy because you're American. Doesn't make much sense does it?