Before you go on take a moment and ask yourself do you really want to read this? In case you do, and you probably shouldn`t:
The Great Stimulus Debate of '09: "Crybabies need not apply"By MIKE WHITNEYBarack Obama has decided to push the economy back into recession, and no one can figure out why. Perhaps the impressionable Obama has come under the spell of the deficit hawks and crystal gazers who see Armageddon around every corner. Or maybe he's thrown-in with the snappish Marc Faber whose dire predictions of hyperinflation are about as cheery as Hieronymus Bosch's vision of Hell. Whatever the reason, the President has done a hasty volte-face and decided that trimming the deficits in the middle of a severe economic downturn is the way to go. Here's what Obama said just days ago on his Asia tour: "I think it is important to recognize if we keep on adding to the debt, even in the midst of this recovery, that at some point, people could lose confidence in the U.S. economy in a way that could actually lead to a double-dip recession."Obama is either getting some very bad advice or he's simply determined to drive a stake into the flickering economy. All plans for deficit-pruning should be postponed until the economy steadies itself and the jobs picture improves. Raising taxes or slashing spending while the economy is still contracting is crazy. It shows that Obama is being influenced by the Gain through Pain school who think that mass liquidation and years of bitter retrenchment are the best medicine. They're wrong. Sensible people look for solutions that don't involve hair shirts, moving to underground bunkers or living off root-crops for the next millennia. Obama's metamorphosis into Ludwig von Mises sends a disturbing message to working people as well as to foreign creditors. It suggests that the commander-in-chief is in the thrall of careworn Jeremiahs. If that's the case, things could get ugly fast. With the Democrats backing-down on a second round of stimulus, the Fed signaling an end to quantitative easing, and Obama moaning about rising deficits; there's a good chance that the ailing economy could take another dunk down the elevator chute.To read more: http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney11202009.html
Marko: Sensible people look for solutions that don't involve hair shirts, moving to underground bunkers or living off root-crops for the next millennia.
Sensible people look for solutions that don't involve hair shirts, moving to underground bunkers or living off root-crops for the next millennia.
Don't you have to love how full of themselves these people are? Sensible, humanistic Keynesians vs. medieval, self-chastising Misesians.I feel punched indeed.
too bad there wasn't a forum on that site, i was ready to dive in
I sent him this e-mail."Can you name one stimulus that has worked? Did you know that the great depression ended when they cut spending by 2/3rds after FDR left office? That unemployment at the beginning of the GD was the same as just before WWII? Government cannot create anything. It merely redistributes it. Stimulus packages are ponzi schemes. Can you explain why the crash of 1920 was worse in its first year than the great depression but was resolved nearly 7 times faster by not doing anything? Don't you see a moral problem with inflation? Namely that it leeches wealth away from people who keep their assets in money (poor people) and benefits those who receive the newly created money first (rich people)? Does unsustainable boom mean anything to you? The most important point: Shouldn't people have a right not to participate in the stimulus? Why should everyone be forced to pay for something they don't support? The reason people like you (and perhaps people like me) are so offensive is because we are caught in a zero sum game where winner takes all'.
Already building up infrastructure for when the Great Depression hits. It is going to be Obama being a Misesian and not doing enough to prevent it. We`ll see if the narrative this time unsticks.
It makes me wonder what these people think money is... Just keep throwing money at it until its fixed. It reminds of little else other then a stubborn king yelling at his rebelling subjects that he's the king. The money is worthless, invalid, and being used as a feeble attempt to save a sinking ship, just as the king is using his worthless and invalid name to try to stop the approaching mob.
"Thats no law, thats just a sword. Happens I got one too"
If crybabies do not apply, then shouldn't the author of this article also shut up.
It seems to be that he is annoyed at the fact that Obama is not a COMPLETE economic moron like he is. I am of course granting Obama quite a bit of courtesy in saying he is not a complete idiot in this respect, but compared to this low grade idiot it seems that this is an accurate assessment.
.... I sense high concentration of fail.... Careful if this fail meets the fail of the current main stream economic thought it could creat a fail storm of catastrophic proportions and destroy sanfransisco
That's all that needs to be said. Cutting back on spending slightly and calling it disastor mode is absolutly idiotic considering how little the current huge amounts of spending have done so little... But then again most economists fail anyway so.....
This statement makes me wonder. Is Austrian-ism now becoming mainstream to the degree that Ludwig von Mises is actually used in an insulting fashion? Why not someone like Milton Friedman? Everyone loves jabbing him with anti-free-market rhetorical statements.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
Laughing Man: This statement makes me wonder. Is Austrian-ism now becoming mainstream to the degree that Ludwig von Mises is actually used in an insulting fashion? Why not someone like Milton Friedman? Everyone loves jabbing him with anti-free-market rhetorical statements.
If it is, then we are seeing an Alinsky Rule 5 play (marginalize through ridicule). I suggest there may be something to what Laughing Man says.
In the year 4000...
We tried von Mises's approach in the obama administration -you libertarians never learn from history!
The conclusion of his article:
The economy is headed for another slowdown that could drag on for a decade or more. The choices are stark; either policymakers take emergency action to reverse the trend or the economy will slip into a slump. .
What's needed now, is a gargantuan blast of stimulus to jolt the economy out of its lethargy and put the mighty wheels of industry back in motion. That will require public mobilization and a massive commitment of resources. $1 trillion, $2 trillion, even $3 trillion--whatever it takes--should be pumped into the jet-stream so the dollars fall to earth like a spring rain from sea to shining sea. That will get people spending again. That will put people back to work. We'll worry about the red ink later.
No more excuses. No more crybaby blabber about deficits. Just do it.
Mike Whitney lives in Washington state. He can be reached at fergiewhitney@msn.com
I understand what Rothbard said about economic ignorance ("...it is a dismal science..."), but come on. A "gargantuan blast of stimulus"?
I think SNL needs to do a "Really?" segment focused entirely on this article. Unbelievable.
Doesn't this theoretically mean that Von Mises is to the left of George W. Bush?
Check my blog, if you're a loser
whitney has probably just heard von mises' name thrown around on a few youtube videos, read the first 5 lines and subheadings of his Wikipedia page and all of a sudden he's an expert on austrian economics.
Laughing Man: This statement makes me wonder. Is Austrian-ism now becoming mainstream to the degree that Ludwig von Mises is actually used in an insulting fashion?
This statement makes me wonder. Is Austrian-ism now becoming mainstream to the degree that Ludwig von Mises is actually used in an insulting fashion?
That would be great news wouldn`t it? For the markets to become synonymous with Mises, even if just among the Commies."We" must be doing something right.
What's needed now, is a gargantuan blast of stimulus
That's what she said.
I don't know if I'm happy or sad about Mises catching on to the mainstream....
I just hope it doesn't end up where anyone who identifies as a "Miseian" has to defend against accusations of anti-semitism...
The Article:Obama's metamorphosis into Ludwig von Mises sends a disturbing message to working people as well as to foreign creditor.
I want everyone to know that when I read that statement, I fell over laughing, tears streaming down my face. I fought long and hard to avoid death by taking small gasps of air in between the uncontrollable fits of laughter. After a few minutes of intense struggle, I finally staggered my way onto my feet, oxygen deprevation taking its toll on my body and mind. It is with this preface that you may read my post; please direct any complaints of logical or factual fallacy to the writer of the above statement, for it is that statement which I shall blame, on account of its sending me into such a diminished state of mind.
It should be pointed out that this article, should it be deserving of that title, was clearly written by someone who has only heard of Mises, but has never explored his ideas with any depth at all. In fact, I would venture to say that he has not even studied the length and breadth of Mises; all he has is a lonely point: Mises' name and reputation for being free market. He could never point out the nuances of the calculation debate, Mises' expansion of the field of praxeology, nor could he ever illustrate the Austrian Theory of the Business Cycle. Had he known anything about these subjects, he would have refrained from dropping Mises' name.
Yet he did.
The very idea presented in the article, apart from Mises being Obama's new role model, is that of the broken window fallacy so eloquently refuted many moons ago by the brilliant Frederic Bastiat in his essay, "What is Seen, and What is Not Seen." By smashing windows and directing production towards the glazier, he argues, it will be possible to grow the economy. The ladle dips into one end of a pool, he says, and somehow dumps more water into another end of the pool than was removed. He sees the water being poured over the pool; the pool rises, and he is impressed by the growth, and he congratulates the ingenious economic planners for such brilliant work. What he fails to see, however, is that deep ladle skimming the surface in order to acquire that water in the very first place. He also fails to see any spills the wondrous central planners may make on their journey from the deep end to the shallow end.
Mises, like Bastiat, saw the consequences of these planners. He saw how they create booms through credit expansion and debt, and he saw how their booms must always result in busts. Obama, in contrast, has failed to see any of this. He reappointed Bernanke, a man who believes in the magical effects of credit expansion. If he has just now come to his senses, he should be out their arguing for Bernanke's expulsion from his position. Instead, I only hear him state that he is planning on having a jobs summit in December. I find it highly unlikely that he, with the pressure of reelection looming in the not to distant future, will fail to enact another round of make-work programs.
The one attribute they failed to recognize between Obama and Von Mises is the fact that Von Mises was never an advocate to completely tank the American dollar and economy.
But really - little difference between their policies. *sarcastic eye roll*
BTW - there is a "feedback" link on the website referenced. I plan on firing back on this one - that single statement couldn't be farther than the truth!
Har har har.
The funny thing is that he thinks saying that an economist doesn't have positive predictions regarding the outcome of a policy is somehow an insult.
That makes me scratch my head. I thought it was pretty much universal that at least some ideas are bad.
Im not sure, but I think Obama only turns sensible overseas. meaning he is telling the Chinese what they want to hear.
"Dont worry, I know whats wrong and I know what I have to do to fix it. Until now I have been paying off my friends who got me elected, you know I had to do that, and from now on I will worry about leaving you with an america that can actually repay its trillion dollar debt.'
But when he comes home to the good ole US of A, with more demanding hands outstretched to him than to a wealthy tourist in bombay, he will speak with the other fork of his tongue.
My humble blog
It's easy to refute an argument if you first misrepresent it. William Keizer
That would be a huge irony given that Mise was jewish himself.
EinarFridgeirs:That would be a huge irony given that Mise was jewish himself.
lisann: The one attribute they failed to recognize between Obama and Von Mises is the fact that Von Mises was never an advocate to completely tank the American dollar and economy. But really - little difference between their policies. *sarcastic eye roll* BTW - there is a "feedback" link on the website referenced. I plan on firing back on this one - that single statement couldn't be farther than the truth!
One attribute they failed to recognize? Mises and Obama are diametric opposites. This is so irresponsible on their part.
"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."
This must be a joke of some sort. Must be. I'm completely flabbergasted.
I didn't get a response from the author.Maybe me email was so damning he killed himself.
Hooray for snowflake!
Snowflake: EinarFridgeirs:That would be a huge irony given that Mise was jewish himself. Those self hating jews...
I am aware that Mises was Jewish. I was alluding to the claims of anti-semitism against Rothbard (who is also Jewish) by the mainstream.
Lol, well rothbard was somthing of an ass occasionally when it came to talking about minorities.
The Late Andrew Ryan: Lol, well rothbard was somthing of an ass occasionally when it came to talking about minorities.
I read his Anti Israel stuff. I don't feel competent to argue anything he says pre 1967, since I was barely or not at all alive at the time. But I remember very clearly the 6 day war, and the days preceding it. His totally insane rewrite of that period makes me think that either
1. he really was insane about that one subject, similar to his fear of elevators, or
2. someone was paying him to write that garbage.
Sigh, there is no Santa Claus. Nobody's perfect.
Just a shame that his anti Israel atitude has become the standard for this site.
Smiling Dave:Just a shame that his anti Israel atitude has become the standard for this site.
What?
Smiling Dave: 1. he really was insane about that one subject, similar to his fear of elevators, or
What has he written on that subject that is insane?
Considering many of us are anti-state, we are just as anti Israel as we are anti any other state. The entire conflict is state centric. Remove Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and the conflict would die down.
Esuric: Smiling Dave:Just a shame that his anti Israel atitude has become the standard for this site. What?
If I'm wrong, I am very glad. Maybe lewrockwell.com is what Im thinking of.
Zach_the_Lizard: Smiling Dave: 1. he really was insane about that one subject, similar to his fear of elevators, or What has he written on that subject that is insane? As I wrote in the earlier post, his description of the 6 day war and the days preceding it. Smiling Dave:Just a shame that his anti Israel atitude has become the standard for this site. Considering many of us are anti-state, we are just as anti Israel as we are anti any other state. The entire conflict is state centric. Remove Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and the conflict would die down. I'm OK with that.
As I wrote in the earlier post, his description of the 6 day war and the days preceding it.
I'm OK with that.
There are so many different fallacies in this one article, a full analysis of all of them would have to be at least 10 times the length of the article itself. The transgressions on reason are so many and so egregious, that of them all, the claim that Obama is metamorphosing in Ludwig von Mises seems relatively tame for the author's usual standards. It is of course, a false analogy to compare Obama to Mises, and an incredibly horrid one at that given that there are absolutely no similarities in their views. Obama still supports massive government deficits, even if he thinks that past a certain point they might become counterproductive. Of Mises, I'm quite sure Mike Whitney knows absolutely nothing, except for the fact that he was supportive of free markets. However, I think that there are many gems to be found in this article, such as:
"$1 trillion, $2 trillion, even $3 trillion--whatever it takes--should be pumped into the jet-stream so the dollars fall to earth like a spring rain from sea to shining sea."
"Stimulus works in multiple ways. It also helps increase inflation expectations which is necessary to get people spending again. In a deflationary environment, consumers stop spending and the economy grinds to a halt."
"But there is a remedy, and it doesn't involve decades of cave-dwelling and a steady diet of processed cheese and beans. Stimulus works."