zeitgeist the movie:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#made from Peter Joseph:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQRnjBRET6k
martinblochberger: Zeitgeist
Zeitgeist
...is a load of crap.
I thank Zeitgeist for getting me into politics/economics, but further research into its credibility left me very disappointed.
So was the part explaining all the Jesus like characters and the resurrection complete bs as well?
free paradigm blog ::: free paradigm on youtube
I don't think it matters, they were not criticizing christianity for the right reasons.
demosthenes: So was the part explaining all the Jesus like characters and the resurrection complete bs as well?
I know what he was trying to aim at with the religion part in his documentary, but historically couldn't correctly place it. It would be easier for him to cut right to the chase and say that the Bible is a book of Jewish mythology wrapped in Right-Hand Path philosophy, and all previous religions god's were flipped into the Judea-Christian Satan, then expand from that.
demosthenes:So was the part explaining all the Jesus like characters and the resurrection complete bs as well?
Yes, all of it.
"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."
martinblochberger: zeitgeist the movie:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#made from Peter Joseph:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQRnjBRET6k
Congratulations, you've fallen for nwo propaganda. You support technocracy / anarcho-communism, which is the venus project & you don't even know it.
I'd recommend Alex Jones documentaries over Zeitgeist anyday. He is far closer to the mark.
Conza88: I'd recommend Alex Jones documentaries over Zeitgeist anyday. He is far closer to the mark.
I hope that was sarcasm. Alex Jones? Really?
This is apparently a Man Talk Forum: No Women Allowed!
Telpeurion's Disliked Person of the Week: David Kramer
Telpeurion: Conza88: I'd recommend Alex Jones documentaries over Zeitgeist anyday. He is far closer to the mark. I hope that was sarcasm. Alex Jones? Really?
Nope, it wasn't sarcasm. Have you got any anti-new world order / global elite documentaries you would recommend instead of Zeitgeist? What have you seen of his anyway, please list them all.
Conza88: Telpeurion: Conza88: I'd recommend Alex Jones documentaries over Zeitgeist anyday. He is far closer to the mark. I hope that was sarcasm. Alex Jones? Really? Nope, it wasn't sarcasm. Have you got any anti-new world order / global elite documentaries you would recommend instead of Zeitgeist? What have you seen of his anyway, please list them all.
When I was watching his Endgame out of boredom one day, I just about fell out of my seat with laughter when he got to his preposterous darwinian-futurist-immortal elites climax. Alex Jones is such a tool.
JosephBright:When I was watching his Endgame out of boredom one day, I just about fell out of my seat with laughter when he got to his preposterous darwinian-futurist-immortal elites climax.
And yet it's still better than zeitgeist. You haven't got any recommendations? Didn't think so.
JosephBright:Alex Jones is such a tool.
And yet this tool has done more than you to wake people up about the false left / right paradigm.. and support Ron Paul.
You don't see any value in The Obama Deception?
Conza88: JosephBright:When I was watching his Endgame out of boredom one day, I just about fell out of my seat with laughter when he got to his preposterous darwinian-futurist-immortal elites climax. And yet it's still better than zeitgeist. You haven't got any recommendations? Didn't think so.
Conza, I am not familiar with Jones in the least. I'm sure I've commentary about him having said quite ridiculous things. but judging that speech alone, (and excusing the minarchy) I think it was a great performance.
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
Editing Again. I Wish alex jones would be like that video more often. I mean the minarchist thing is eh... but the rest was good rhetoric.
nirgrahamUK: Conza, I am not familiar with Jones in the least. I'm sure I've commentary about him having said quite ridiculous things. but judging that speech alone, (and excusing the minarchy) I think it was a great performance.
To be fair, the bagpipes were a bit much.
JosephBright:To be fair, the bagpipes were a bit much.
Yeah, some guy adds bagpipes and can't mix at an appropriate sound level, so the bagpipes drown out the speech.
AJ has been pretty good for the last couple months. He's been almost ancap. Calls the government criminal constantly, and not just the FEDs but the states as well.
That said, he still can be over the top and it is a bit much.
JosephBright:
You put this in the same category as Alex Jones documentaries / Zeitgeist films? i.e addressing the new world order?
No? Neither do I, which makes you posting it completely irrelevant since it doesn't address the origional question I raised and that which you responded to.
The point of me recommending Alex Jones documentaries to the OP, instead of Zeitgeist ones - is:
(1) because the OP is clearly going down the conspiracy road, which is fine to an extent, since it's a realization that those who control the state don't lose their self interest when they gain power. But also that,
(2) Zeitgeist is new age bs, full of fallacies and half truths - socialism fails, "capitalism" has failed, so what we need is love, technocracy, a post scarcity world - a computer to make everything, more love, no money, resource based economy and so anarcho-communism ftw!
(3) The new age movement is all about ethical relativism. There is no absolute truth, only what is true for you. The AJ path is the opposite.
(4) The AJ path leads to Ron Paul, who in turn leads to Libertarianism and Austrian Economics... (which leads back to here, lol. So maybe he should just stay and start learning economics and political philosophy, but I don't think that is likely.)
(5) The AJ path has considerable less fallacies and deals in a completely different area i.e reality, as opposed to fantasy land. eg.
http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy (lmao)
Anyway, I wasn't recommending or defending Alex Jones overall, just in comparison to the Zeitgeist movement. I'm still yet to hear a better alternative for someone going down this road.
I haven't listened to him in a year + really (no need since I know the endgame and tactics, but realise there is better ground to stand on in terms of logic, political philosophy and economics - which is accessible everywhere you go, as oppossed to trying to get people to research this, or watch this doco.
I do however check out infowars.com articles every now and then. LRC, via David Kramer often post similar content.
Alex Jones does let loose, part of it is entertainment, rhetoric, what have you. And yep, there is a lot he doesn't get, i.e Austrian Economics, and he doesn't get past the Constitution, but it's more so used as a comparison to world government and what we have now.
My take on Zeigeist.
Part 1
a) Religion. True to the core. You have to live in a totally non-religious country like I do to appreciate the rabid anger with which the Christian World can react when its fables are exposed.
b) 9/11. True to the core. You have to live…er, anywhere but in America to be puzzled by the fact the Americans are the only people on this earth nowadays still largely thinking that 9/11 was a terrorist job.
c)The Fed. BS, clearly intelligence tactics: tell one truth, two lies. It can no longer be hidden that the Fed is leading the States to ruin, so what do you do? You cave in to Ron Paul, or you give an alternate explanation of why the Fed is a failure? Of course the latter! So, for Zeigesit, the Fed isn’t wrong as the monopoly issuer of legal tender notes, but only as it is privately owned (?!). Back in the gold days on the Civil War when honest Abe printed his own money, everything was fine, and that’s why the Rothschilds had him killed. A load of c..p!
Part 2
a) The Fed. Idem.
b) International “dirty jobs”. Probably true, but I can say with certainty. What puzzles me is that, should the Zeitgeist view be correct, it would follow that any country now on earth is sovereign, and must be bullied into submission in particular issue. I’m afraid that most countries nowadays are just parts of the American Empire, and have no will of their own.
c) Venus project...I didn’t even watch that part.
As for Alex Jones, guys we must go softer on Conspiracy Theorists. Just put yourself in their position: back in the days when you knew no praxeology, but still could see that something was wrong. Without a sound theory you just go by guessing. In this respect, I often find myself very satisfied with the quality of some of the insights of Conspiracy Theorists. For guys that have no idea at all of how Economics can truly be a science, for people subjected to half a century of intensive propaganda, they sometimes have good ideas. Of course, many more faults.
I myself lend an eager ear to such theories when they’re NOT talking of economics, but history, for they can be quite thorough researchers.
Zeitgeist Addendum is way worse. (Part 2)
You can sense the propaganda and appeal to emotion constantly, fallacy and half truths are mixed in together, which makes it so effective.
Propaganda 101, mixed with high production values... to be fair, if you know jack about economics and philosophy.. (like most people), it is very easy to get sucked in.
He's over the top, but almost always 100% correct. Hardly a tool.
As for Zeitgeist, it's typical disnfo.
The religious section either misrepresents facts, or outright lies, both the 9/11 section and the FED section sets you on a path of chasing red herrings; the movie represents them as bad but uses flawed reasons for why they are.
Merlin:a) Religion. True to the core. You have to live in a totally non-religious country like I do to appreciate the rabid anger with which the Christian World can react when its fables are exposed.
Unfortunately part one has been entirely refuted as pure nonsense. Do you want specifics?
Merlin: b) 9/11. True to the core. You have to live…er, anywhere but in America to be puzzled by the fact the Americans are the only people on this earth nowadays still largely thinking that 9/11 was a terrorist job.
Because there's no hardcore evidence. There are assertions fused with some scientific explanations along with nonsensical fantasy. For example, there are those who believe that the planes were projections.
The movie took loose change, combined it with old illuminati conspiracy theories, and attacked religion. The citations at the end are merely recycled over and over again in order to make it appear legitimate. It's pure statist Marxian propaganda--the Marxian agenda seeks to destroy civilization and religion. They need to eliminate natural law, and religion has been and can be used against the state.
Merlin:Religion. True to the core. You have to live in a totally non-religious country like I do to appreciate the rabid anger with which the Christian World can react when its fables are exposed
What country hasn't been influenced by religion? I'm not a theist and of course by country I believe you to be using the metaphor or shorthand for saying a certain number of individuals in a given geographical area but truly, I'm wondering where these 'non-religious' countries exist.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
It has been an interesting couple of years since I came to the realization that the term new world order has been used intermittently by many different people in different situations for over a century. If you cherry pick quotes I am sure you will see all sorts of people mentioning it. Hey mom, Hitler said he wanted a new world order! Hey dad, Soros said he wanted a new world order! They must be in collusion! If, however, one looks at everything within the context, you start to see something quite obvious to a scholar of language; the term new world order can apply to any circumstance.
How come no one talks about the OWO? Or the CWO? What are those you say? Oh, they are the Old World Order, and the Current World Order respectively. The Old World Order is a conspiracy of monarchists and feudal lords attempting to return to the ancient regime! The Current World Order is a loose band of parliamentarians trying to keep their grasp on power. The secrecy! The satan worship! -_-
For those who do not get sarcasm: When someone says they want there to be a new world order, let them explain what it is. Mises and Rothbard wanted a new world order also. I want a new world order too, a liberal order. =]
Telpeurion:The Current World Order is a loose band of parliamentarians trying to keep their grasp on power. The secrecy! The satan worship!
I suppose when you choose not to analyse anything in depth, and ridicule anyone who could possibly use the word 'conspiracy', the accident view of history might make sense. Since I'm living in the real world, I'll place all the accident theories of history where they belong; outside of any proper analysis of government.
As I've said, Austrian Economics, Anarcho-Capitalism and "Conspiracy theories" are indelibly intertwined. Want to reject tin foil hat wearing nut heads? You only impair your own analysis.
Laughing Man: Merlin:Religion. True to the core. You have to live in a totally non-religious country like I do to appreciate the rabid anger with which the Christian World can react when its fables are exposed What country hasn't been influenced by religion? I'm not a theist and of course by country I believe you to be using the metaphor or shorthand for saying a certain number of individuals in a given geographical area but truly, I'm wondering where these 'non-religious' countries exist.
I’d say that, when compared to the religious zeal of fundamentalist, many individual;ls in a few countries emerge aslittle-touched by religious dogma. Denmark comes to mind. My own Albania too, take my word for it.
Esuric:need to eliminate natural law, and religion has been and can be used against the state.
Organized religion is just another State, although dwindling in importance. it has nothing at all to do with the natural order, or civilization. Thus, religion can be used to fight the state only as much as The US and China can be made to fight each-other, in order to fight the State. Hardly feasible.
Also, from a more pragmatic point of view, incentives for organized religion are way bigger when helping the state, not fighting it. (the 4-players rule of thumb is helpful in this respect). Eve if one believes that religion could plausibly be used to fight the State, rest assure that it won’t. That doesn’t mean, of course, that individuals with strong religious opinions can’t fight the State. But the whole shall never.
Austrian economics and conspiracies are not intertwined. Conspiracy theorists remind me of the Historical School and I guess that's why I see racists with the same world view. It's always some international Jewry private banking cabal and never the blow back from the state.
edit: reply torwards Seph
solos: Austrian economics and conspiracies are not intertwined. Conspiracy theorists remind me of the Historical School and I guess that's why I see racists with the same world view. It's always some international Jewry private banking cabal and never the blow back from the state.
Not all CT’s point the finger at “Jewish banking cartels”. A few have emerged holding that the whole “Jewish conspiracy” thing has just been started by the Jesuits, who’re the real power holders. So CT isn’t equal to “Jewish conspiracy theory”. It’s just an unarticulated and poorly informed expression of the distrust towards the State. In this respect I too believe that Libertarianism can’t be said to have nothing to do with CT’s.
Seph:As I've said, Austrian Economics, Anarcho-Capitalism and "Conspiracy theories" are indelibly intertwined. Want to reject tin foil hat wearing nut heads? You only impair your own analysis.
Woha woha woha. Just because we are anarcho-capitalist does not infer we must believe that the CIA was on the grassy knoll. We are men and women with a love of intelligence and demand truth, facts, rationality and logic.
Merlin:I’d say that, when compared to the religious zeal of fundamentalist, many individual;ls in a few countries emerge aslittle-touched by religious dogma. Denmark comes to mind. My own Albania too, take my word for it.
So are you saying that these countries are just less religiously orientated or devoid of religion?
Merlin: Organized religion is just another State, although dwindling in importance. it has nothing at all to do with the natural order, or civilization. Thus, religion can be used to fight the state only as much as The US and China can be made to fight each-other, in order to fight the State. Hardly feasible. Also, from a more pragmatic point of view, incentives for organized religion are way bigger when helping the state, not fighting it. (the 4-players rule of thumb is helpful in this respect). Eve if one believes that religion could plausibly be used to fight the State, rest assure that it won’t. That doesn’t mean, of course, that individuals with strong religious opinions can’t fight the State. But the whole shall never.
I suggest Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought, by Murray Rothbard. Religion was once the state's biggest foe, and remains its potential enemy. Also, I know many Albanians who are religious, in fact, they're all religious and faced extreme persecution.
Esuric:I suggest Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought, by Murray Rothbard. Religion was once the state's biggest foe, and remains its potential enemy. Also, I know many Albanians who are religious, in fact, religion was an obstacle Alia faced.
Well really all social institutions which do not require the state in order to operate are potential enemies of the state itself. They challenge its power. I may go as far to say that the human mind itself has the greatest potential to be the enemy of the state.
Laughing Man: So are you saying that these countries are just less religiously orientated or devoid of religion?
True, my original post overstated the fact. (Far) Less religiously oriented would cut it.
Laughing Man:Well really all social institutions which do not require the state in order to operate are potential enemies of the state itself. They challenge its power. I may go as far to say that the human mind itself has the greatest potential to be the enemy of the state.
The Jesuits, Catholic scholastics and tomists called for political assassinations. Mariana (whom Rothbard calls the "learned extremist) advocated tyanicide for those rulers who taxed without consent and debased the currency. They also discredited claims to "divine right." This may explain why the Marxist conspiracies attack them.
What exactly does it matter if the Federal Reserve was created and is operated by well meaning idiots, a cabal of the Rockefeller and Rothschild families, the Freemasons, demonic reptilian spider men from Pluto, or all of the above? It's economic effects are the same, and it's far easier to argue against it when you do not burden Austrian Economics and liberalism with the pseudo-religious babble of the tinfoil hat crowd. What good does it do to hurt our growing traction by having our name associated with such folk, any more than we should associate ourselves with Neo-Nazis over free speech, white supremacists over freedom of association, drug dealers over freedom of transaction or Marxists over opposition to corporatism?
While, from a technical perspective, associating with these individuals is not per se unethical, it is certainly a bad move from a pragmatic perspective of public relations and political credibility. It also shuts us out to groups of folk like myself, who are often hesitant to identify themselves publically as such because of the association these terms have with the black helicopter crowd, much as opposition to moral relativism is associated with religious fundamentalism. Now, you can fight these associations, such as the "anti Obama/welfare/rent control people are racist" crowd or the "corporatism=free markets" crowd, but I think that picking one's battles is a good pragmatic strategy if you want to get the movement going, and getting people hot and sweaty over the supposed European ownership of the Federal Reserve or Barack Obama being the pawn of a Neo-Nazi cabal personally ranks much lower on my list of priorities than getting people to oppose economic interventionism and MSM doublespeak.
Esuric:I suggest Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought, by Murray Rothbard. Religion was once the state's biggest foe, and remains its potential enemy.
I’ll certainly look into that.
Esuric:Also, I know many Albanians who are religious, in fact, they're all religious and faced extreme persecution.
Religious? I submit that less that 15% of my conationals go to any kind of church/mosque more often than ONCE a year (I personally accompany my parents to church for Christmas, although I’m supposed to be Moslem), and roughly half of them NEVER set foot in one (my own perception, of course, can’t provide solid figures). Religion is a joke to Albanians, a kind of sport. You have to pick a “religion” just like you pick teams in soccer. Yet, Albanians having emigrated aboard, especially those that did so before 1945 tend to be more religious, as integration would have it. As for religious persecution, that is precisely the point. Had the population been truly religious, they would have overthrown the communist regime for even mentioning the possibility of closing churches and mosques. In fact, no one said a word. The fact that my former regime was the only I know of to have ever considered itself as “atheistic” (not laical) speaks volumen of the religious orientation of Albanians. Thank God!
Esuric:The Jesuits, Catholic scholastics and tomists called for political assassinations. Mariana (whom Rothbard calls the "learned extremist) advocated tyanicide for those rulers who taxed without consent and debased the currency. They also discredited claims to "divine right." This may explain why the Marxist conspiracies attack them.
Well I have never seen Zeitgeist nor do I ever plan to watch it but the reason behind Marxist's dislike of religion has more to do with class consciousness and not its opposition to the state per say.
Merlin:True, my original post overstated the fact. (Far) Less religiously oriented would cut it.
A much more sensible statement.
Laughing Man:Well I have never seen Zeitgeist nor do I ever plan to watch it
While I’d recommend it, be it even for its entertainment value. But I’m sure an open mind can find much more in there, and even hope to discern the half-truths form the rest.