How do we get the message across?

Eric:

It is hopeless to try to educate some people. Some people will support statism until they starve. Personally, I only try to debate with people who are interested and open-minded.

I am leaning in that direction as well, and have been for sometime.  That said, Ruben has decided to "get in my kitchen" so-to-speak.

 

I don't have a GP.  I have not renewed my ID card.  I go to the Naturopath if I need to.  I don't live a healthy life, but I am improving.  I am much healthier than my family members with medicine cabinets that look like pharmacies.

Natalie:

And yet Canada serves as an example of health care for all for many people here in the US. That's just shows how ignorant many American are even to what's happening just across the border.

Well here is the thing.  No one in Canada plans for their health.  They just go to the Doctor.  And while the service is not very good, they don't have to pay, and most workplaces will accommodate sick days and such.  It's when you get very ill, and you need emergency care, that depending upon who you are and where you live, you may be out of luck.

This is part of pro-state brainwashing, teaching people to give up their responsibility for their own lives, and to rely exclusively on planners and bureaucrats to provide.

 

liberty student:

Brainpolice:

Concerns about the mediocrity of the masses aside, libertarianism will never succeed if it's relegated to grooming a small elite.

And yet libertarians spend a lot more time criticizing each other than the state.  Instead of attacking Obama, it's debating how compromised Ron Paul is.  Instead of going after fascists and marxists, it is arguing about how intellectually bankrupt minarchists or paleocons are.

There is a discussion going on about philosophy here.  The layman can't read it.  It's one thing to say one should not groom an elite, but another to cater to a narrow elite in language and subject matter.  Many libertarian blogs are susceptible to this.

That's why NoState.com and NoThirdSolution.com are some of my favorite blogs, even FSK's Guide.  They don't try to talk down to people, or to invest thousands upon thousands of words upon topics that the guy trying to house and clothe his family will likely never consider, and rightfully so, because it doesn't contribute to his life in any meaningful way.

People who want to touch the masses, will engage in subjects which are topical to the masses.  The elitism is only promoted by catering to the writer's self interest, not the self-interest of the readers.  If your self interest is self-aggrandizement, then it's great to talk above everyone.  If your self interest is to spread liberty outside the choir, then adjustments are in order.

How can I rate this as the best post I've read on these forums?

Obviously, the state needs healthy workers. If you're very sick and possible dying you're a drain of resources and it's cheaper just to let you die. That's why I always want to LOL whenever someone tells me how the private providers "only care for profit" therefore the government should be the one to provide healthcare, education, etc (whatever the speaker thinks everyone has a right to). Yes, the for profit private providers react to the rise in demand by expanding their operations. The government, on the other hand, views healthcare as an expense and would rather cut it by denying service to the least valuable (to them) groups of population. I wonder why it's so hard for people to understand...

Steve:

liberty student:

DrunknMunky:

/facepalm

No doubt.  And he refuses to acknowledge the costs of thousands of jobs lost to bailout a failed GM.  Or that taxes are theft.  Or that the government caused the crisis through the Austrian business cycle, or that democracy is mob rule or any other # of things.  He's here only to promote his far left socialist ideals.

At this point, I can't help but to feel that he's trolling.

 

I don't know if he's trolling. He seems more like one of those folks that no matter how you try to explain something to them, they just don't get it. The sad part is, that a majority of the world probably thinks the way he does and we really have our work cut out.

Panarchy:

How do we educate the Masses?

I have not read through the thread so maybe this has been suggested, but I think one of the best ways would be through a computer game that rewards users for freer economies and that they win when they eliminate government.

I recently played Civilization IV and went with the economic system ''State Ownership". Then I thought "This is actually pretty silly that mercantilism and socialism have some benefits in contrast to free markets" but on the other hand, for the government they do have benefits, so the game isn't that wrong (Of course, according to Hoppe a god-emperor who lives thousands of year would always go with free markets ).

A maybe interesting theme for a game would be a heavy state controlled economy, where you have to take back policies (to win) and you can see people reorganizing and making things better. Of course, there would be the creative destruction and unions and protests or something, but in the end, if you do it right everything is fine. But this game would be very hard to pull of.

Conza88:

liberty student:

Brainpolice:

Concerns about the mediocrity of the masses aside, libertarianism will never succeed if it's relegated to grooming a small elite.

And yet libertarians spend a lot more time criticizing each other than the state.  Instead of attacking Obama, it's debating how compromised Ron Paul is.  Instead of going after fascists and marxists, it is arguing about how intellectually bankrupt minarchists or paleocons are.

There is a discussion going on about philosophy here.  The layman can't read it.  It's one thing to say one should not groom an elite, but another to cater to a narrow elite in language and subject matter.  Many libertarian blogs are susceptible to this.

That's why NoState.com and NoThirdSolution.com are some of my favorite blogs, even FSK's Guide.  They don't try to talk down to people, or to invest thousands upon thousands of words upon topics that the guy trying to house and clothe his family will likely never consider, and rightfully so, because it doesn't contribute to his life in any meaningful way.

People who want to touch the masses, will engage in subjects which are topical to the masses.  The elitism is only promoted by catering to the writer's self interest, not the self-interest of the readers.  If your self interest is self-aggrandizement, then it's great to talk above everyone.  If your self interest is to spread liberty outside the choir, then adjustments are in order.

How can I rate this as the best post I've read on these forums? Smile

Seconded; the with-hunt for purity, whether intentional or unintentional, is tantamount to self-defeating elitism, despite said intellectual merits there are in pursuing more correct and/or pure theories (which would eventually denote revised approaches via action).  

If the Statists were concerned with that, they would alienate themselves and/or tear themselves apart continually, much like the libertarian / anarchist movements have seemingly done, decade after decade.

Emotionalism abound in Statist society, yet most of us (if not all of us) were born in said society(ies); it is not surprising that such emotionalism also infects our own debates & discussions, with the Statists hardly having to do any work in discrediting Anti-Statists.

Lately, I've been thinking that creating a culture around our ideas may be the only way we'll survive, instead of relying and/or utilizing the current cultures and/or societies to survive.  Genocide of a culture is far more offensive to many citizens of the State than terrorists or anarchist "hoodlums" being rounded up in cages at the DNC/RNC dog & pony shows.    

The Statists have already infected cultures that we were born into; I think it's time we beat them at their own game, possibly.  Considerably vague comments, I admit, & possibly redundant, but overall, unification between factions in the libertarian / anarchist movements does not mean compromising our principles; it means rising above our differences for a greater goal of providing a better alternative.   Wasn't this how America was more or less started?

Of course, that would mean that not everyone's pet theories & idealistic views would not be necessarily executed.  I suppose if this were virtual reality, that would be easier to deal with, but I see no reason why a little bit of time (historically speaking), patience & some thinking can't help eventually solve that.

</end thoroughly jaded post for the week>

Nitroadict:

The Statists have already infected cultures that we were born into; I think it's time we beat them at their own game, possibly.  Considerably vague comments, I admit, & possibly redundant, but overall, unification between factions in the libertarian / anarchist movements does not mean compromising our principles; it means rising above our differences for a greater goal of providing a better alternative.   Wasn't this how America was more or less started?

Of course, that would mean that not everyone's pet theories & idealistic views would not be necessarily executed.  I suppose if this were virtual reality, that would be easier to deal with, but I see no reason why a little bit of time (historically speaking), patience & some thinking can't help eventually solve that.

</end thoroughly jaded post for the week>

Great stuff.  I think we need to figure out how to raise some money and pay some poor Austrian students during the summer to write free market analysis of sports, movies, pop culture, and then mass web market them.  To do that, we need people willing to settle on common goals, not radical differences.

Conza88:

How can I rate this as the best post I've read on these forums? Smile

Cheers mate.

thebob:

I recently played Civilization IV and went with the economic system ''State Ownership". Then I thought "This is actually pretty silly that mercantilism and socialism have some benefits in contrast to free markets" but on the other hand, for the government they do have benefits, so the game isn't that wrong (Of course, according to Hoppe a god-emperor who lives thousands of year would always go with free markets ).

In Europa Universalis III you can have unbalanced budgets and mint money like crazy, but it will cause inflation and retard research. So you can have an army for free now, but it will bite you in the arse big time through the following centuries. The silly thing is you can research a certain technology that lets you promote mayors into governors and that will somehow lower the inflation, but I guess that is game balance for you.

liberty student:

Great stuff.  I think we need to figure out how to raise some money and pay some poor Austrian students during the summer to write free market analysis of sports, movies, pop culture, and then mass web market them.  To do that, we need people willing to settle on common goals, not radical differences.

Why? The average person doesn't care about philosophy or economics, at best they pay a slight interest to which fool is in the whitehouse these days. Perhaps, they may know enough about their party of choice to recite a few slogans or mumble some statistics. Beyond that, granted that they have their TV they're very easily placated.

And what's more? I couldn't care about that fool either, at least not in regards to the state. I have far more king sentiments for one who dedicates their time to studying and reaches wrong conclusions than I do for the idea who never bothers, and simply accepts whatever he is fed on a spoon. Perhaps time and technology have changed, all that means is that now we're better able to reach the Winston Smiths of this world, the remnant.

GilesStratton:

I have far more king sentiments for one who dedicates their time to studying and reaches wrong conclusions than I do for the idea who never bothers, and simply accepts whatever he is fed on a spoon.

There you go getting all monarchist again. 

GilesStratton:

Why? The average person doesn't care about philosophy or economics, at best they pay a slight interest to which fool is in the whitehouse these days.

No, but they like sports and movies and music.  And those are the mediums to influence their perspectives on unions, intervention, capitalism, etc.

If you're not interested in fighting the long gradual battle, that's fine.  But there are dividends to be paid in the future, with seeds planted today.

 

liberty student:

No, but they like sports and movies and music.  And those are the mediums to influence their perspectives on unions, intervention, capitalism, etc.

Whether or not they accept libertarianism is one thing, whether or not they devote any effort to seeing it in practise is another.

liberty student:

There you go getting all monarchist again.

The BrainThoughpolice will be here soon.

liberty student:

GilesStratton:

Why? The average person doesn't care about philosophy or economics, at best they pay a slight interest to which fool is in the whitehouse these days.

No, but they like sports and movies and music.  And those are the mediums to influence their perspectives on unions, intervention, capitalism, etc.

The working people are by and large cynical about politics, politicians and the establishment. They may not be interested in philosophy (as neither am I), but they are disillusioned and repulsed. That is a much more fertile ground than some  by and large socialy complacent  philosophy students and other upper-middle classers.

I don`t think they need to be spoken down to through sports, movies and music either. They just need to hear what we have to say on what affects their lives directly in a clear, coherant, common-sense way they appreciate. This is where a constitutionalist Ron Paul activist does more good work than scores of purist internet theorethicians.

GilesStratton:

Whether or not they accept libertarianism is one thing, whether or not they devote any effort to seeing it in practise is another.

The mistake is that we think that to be a libertarian, everyone needs to be knee deep in philosophy and economics.  But in reality, Hoppe is right.  We just need a class consciousness, rich and poor to recognize the looters from the producers.  The way to help people recognize things around them (as they are) is to show them different perspectives.

It's not that most people reject libertarianism or can't understand it.  It's that we are not doing a good job of marketing it.  To quote Juan's favorite libertarian, Ron Paul, "Freedom is popular"

But not until people realize that what they have right now, is not freedom.  This sloganeering CHANGE BS can be turned inside out, and used in our favour.

Marko:

The working people are by and large cynical about politics, politicians and the establishment. They may not be interested in philosophy (as neither am I), but they are disillusioned and repulsed. That is a much more fertile ground than some  by and large socialy complacent  philosophy students and other upper-middle classers.

I don`t think they need to be spoken down to through sports, movies and music either. They just need to hear what we have to say on what affects their lives directly in a clear, coherant, common-sense way they appreciate. This is where a constitutionalist Ron Paul activist does more good work than scores of purist internet theorethicians.

Well said.  I was speaking more to the youth than the working class though.  The youth haven't paid taxes, or run afoul of bureaucracy and state power yet.  So we make sure the seeds are planted, that when it does happen, they see it for what it really is.

 

^I've got no idea about Canada and only a little on America. I live in one of the commonwealth countries. Pretty annoying, eh?

Eric:

It is hopeless to try to educate some people. Some people will support statism until they starve. Personally, I only try to debate with people who are interested and open-minded.

(nice to get quoting system working!)

If you only debate with those people, who are (let's make up a percentage, the government does it, so why can't we?), 15% of the population (and that's being generous with my estimate), how do you plan on getting our 'plan' into action?

Don't we need more than just 15%? We might not need the majority (as you know, many revolutions were lead by the few, not the many!), but seriously, 15%?

How do we convince people that don't want to be convinced?

Panarchy

Conza88:

liberty student:

Brainpolice:

Concerns about the mediocrity of the masses aside, libertarianism will never succeed if it's relegated to grooming a small elite.

And yet libertarians spend a lot more time criticizing each other than the state.  Instead of attacking Obama, it's debating how compromised Ron Paul is.  Instead of going after fascists and marxists, it is arguing about how intellectually bankrupt minarchists or paleocons are.

There is a discussion going on about philosophy here.  The layman can't read it.  It's one thing to say one should not groom an elite, but another to cater to a narrow elite in language and subject matter.  Many libertarian blogs are susceptible to this.

That's why NoState.com and NoThirdSolution.com are some of my favorite blogs, even FSK's Guide.  They don't try to talk down to people, or to invest thousands upon thousands of words upon topics that the guy trying to house and clothe his family will likely never consider, and rightfully so, because it doesn't contribute to his life in any meaningful way.

People who want to touch the masses, will engage in subjects which are topical to the masses.  The elitism is only promoted by catering to the writer's self interest, not the self-interest of the readers.  If your self interest is self-aggrandizement, then it's great to talk above everyone.  If your self interest is to spread liberty outside the choir, then adjustments are in order.

How can I rate this as the best post I've read on these forums?

There are some stars at the top of the post.... I'll do the same!!!

LOL

Nah, but you're right, it's a pretty nicely written post.

Thanks

Panarchy

Natalie:

Obviously, the state needs healthy workers. If you're very sick and possible dying you're a drain of resources and it's cheaper just to let you die. That's why I always want to LOL whenever someone tells me how the private providers "only care for profit" therefore the government should be the one to provide healthcare, education, etc (whatever the speaker thinks everyone has a right to). Yes, the for profit private providers react to the rise in demand by expanding their operations. The government, on the other hand, views healthcare as an expense and would rather cut it by denying service to the least valuable (to them) groups of population. I wonder why it's so hard for people to understand...

In America suicide is illegal. Because the government owns us, and doesn't want to destroy it's own property.

Spideynw:

Panarchy:

How do we educate the Masses?

I have not read through the thread so maybe this has been suggested, but I think one of the best ways would be through a computer game that rewards users for freer economies and that they win when they eliminate government.

Hmm...

Okay, sounds like a good project for me.

I'm still a student, so expect a beta release late next year.

Early or in the middle of next year I will brainstorm ideas for it on this forum.

Panarchy

thebob:

A maybe interesting theme for a game would be a heavy state controlled economy, where you have to take back policies (to win) and you can see people reorganizing and making things better. Of course, there would be the creative destruction and unions and protests or something, but in the end, if you do it right everything is fine. But this game would be very hard to pull of.

I could start it off as a text based game...

how about wikipedia?  it's the sole source of knowledge for all youth nowaday.

a good start would be fixing this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008

Maybe I'm just biased, but I think that Wikipedia is a god-awful place for any intellectual discussion.  Corrupt and incompetent admins will try to shut out a lot of opinions that diverge from theirs via stupid rules and such.  The majority of the active editors are intellectually both dishonest and immature.  Not only that, but the overt egalitarianism and consensus-based editing system reminds me far too much of democracy, including the presence of a clear oligarchy of unscrupulous and non-disinterested editors.  See this discussion here below for a little more about it.

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/4855.aspx

On the other hand, vandalism of articles is pretty loltastic.

marcbragh:

how about wikipedia?  it's the sole source of knowledge for all youth nowaday.

a good start would be fixing this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007-2008

Hmm...  there's an interesting article.

Someone needs to make a sub heading;

Why this is happening

:P

Also, how about this article... needs some more 'aspects' doesn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government

Perhaps something under this heading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government#Negative_aspects_of_government

:P

Oh, I'm just itching to 'edit this page'... ;)

Someone help me out with it! (Panarchy is my wiki name as well)

Thanks in advance,

Panarchy

Panarchy:

Hi

Yes, I've asked the question.

How do we educate the Masses?

How do we teach people that government isn't the only way?

How do we inform them of the advantages of the free market?

How do we teach them that government is inherently corrupt?

How do we 'get rid' of the government? (90% sure it doesn't have to be done violently)

Basically, how do we get the message accross, and 'enlighten' the masses?

Panarchy

PS: I am an Anarchist, as I believe Panarchy will 'prosper'

 

Well here's my two cents. 1. We have to make the movement more attractive and stylish without becoming superficial. 2. Two we have to have our own form of "propaganda of the deed" . Doesn't have to be violent, but it does have to be something that the mainstream media will find interesting and be willing to cover. 3. We have to start organising outside of the computer screen; it's high time we've had organisation outside of computers and college campuses, its ridiculous that it has'nt happened yet! 4. We have to know who to target the strongest, these,in my opinion, should be:

a. the young

b. the middle class

c. the disenfranchised

d. the "illegal immigrants" (strongest emphasis on this group)

I hope that helped. :)

Im trying to convert a person who was a big Bob LINO Barr supporter on youtube right now. It isn't working out too well, haha.  " Are you stupid or something? Without the federal reserve, I will have to carry around big bags of gold and silver all day!"

ehh......

 

Nick. B:

Well here's my two cents. 1. We have to make the movement more attractive and stylish without becoming superficial. 2. Two we have to have our own form of "propaganda of the deed" . Doesn't have to be violent, but it does have to be something that the mainstream media will find interesting and be willing to cover. 3. We have to start organising outside of the computer screen; it's high time we've had organisation outside of computers and college campuses, its ridiculous that it has'nt happened yet! 4. We have to know who to target the strongest

1. You mean like a catchy name and slogan?

2. Maybe something like a movie/documentary that will explain our ideals across to the masses (I can help with the script, my brother is also a writer)

3. Aww... we still need a nice catchy website... eh? Maybe tie this in with the documentary.

4. The strongest? Maybe just the masses, easiest way to target the masses is via the media. So all we need to get is publicity for the documentary, everything should fall into place after that.

What are your thoughts on what I've just said?

Panarchy

PS: I fucking hate this forum software, by mistake I pressed the backspace button when I wasn't in the textbox and subsequently lost all my reply. FUCK. I had written some more (and different) stuff... Arghhh!!!!

This forum software is different.  I like it.  It's not as good as others, but has different features.

Does take some getting used to however.

Panarchy:

1. You mean like a catchy name and slogan?

 

Yes and more we have to get our message across through clothing lines, comic books, music, and fine art of all kinds. In a pro-market society, political idealolagy is a market product, and, as such has to be advertised in a fashionable, attractive, and cool way. And also as one of our mottos I suggest "HUMAN FREEDOM" it's simple, pretty catchy, and makes it clear everybody and anybody's freedom will be defended and amplifies that this is an "everymans" movement, and, also as a symbol, we should definitly revive the black rose!

Panarchy:

2. Maybe something like a movie/documentary that will explain our ideals across to the masses (I can help with the script, my brother is also a writer)

 

Don't just stop at documentries, also focus on movies that will portray us in a positive light: Iconoclastic,rebellious, fighters for true liberty. And also we should explore "Hacktivism"  and other new forms of civil disobiedance; anything that will pique Main Stream Media's interest. Propaganda of the deed is meant to make people know we exist and make them curious about our cause and have some of them hopefully join us. MSM just does this unknowingly just by reporting our activities                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

Panarchy:

3. Aww... we still need a nice catchy website... eh? Maybe tie this in with the documentary.

 

This is true and should be. Also all websites should encourage organisation and activity outside of the computer, and, encourage meeting up with fellow AnCaps.

 

to be continued...

Nick. B:

Don't just stop at documentries, also focus on movies that will portray us in a positive light: Iconoclastic,rebellious, fighters for true liberty. And also we should explore "Hacktivism"  and other new forms of civil disobiedance; anything that will pique Main Stream Media's interest. Propaganda of the deed is meant to make people know we exist and make them curious about our cause and have some of them hopefully join us. MSM just does this unknowingly just by reporting our activities                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

Civil Disobedience? Not to be crude, but you could always expand the movement through 4chan...

I ran into this site called libhotties.com, and if I am understanding this correctly,it is basically a bunch of girls trying to lure more guys into libertarianism. It has Mises.org as a recommended link too. I was wondering what you guys thought about this? I guess it could attract some people, but I think it is slightly emberassing for some odd reason. Would a guy really become a libertarian only because an attractive female asked him too? I think the girls on the site are statists, but maybe I am wrong. I was just wondering what your comments were about this unusual tactic. (the site is G rated if anyone was wondering, lol)

Eric:

I ran into this site called libhotties.com, and if I am understanding this correctly,it is basically a bunch of girls trying to lure more guys into libertarianism. It has Mises.org as a recommended link too. I was wondering what you guys thought about this?

 

Use every resource avalable! If we don't somebody else will.

Eric:

I guess it could attract some people, but I think it is slightly emberassing for some odd reason. Would a guy really become a libertarian only because an attractive female asked him too?

 

Yes! Sadly people are more influenced by their emotions than by their intellect. A somber truth. [:'(]

Eric:

I think the girls on the site are statists, but maybe I am wrong. I was just wondering what your comments were about this unusual tactic. (the site is G rated if anyone was wondering, lol)

 

An excellent, unorthodox, and effective way to recruit new people. We have to appeal to both emotions AND intellect.

Luis Buenaventura:

Civil Disobedience? Not to be crude, but you could always expand the movement through 4chan...

 

I don't know what 4chan is, please explain.

Nevermind, if you want to learn about it search it-I don't want to be sucked up by it again, yet there are many so called "anarchist" on it, hence a market for libertarians to shore up. Yet, keep in mind that these are not the most intelligent set of people when, if, you enter the domain of 4chan. 

Btw it is a VERY crude website- I'll just leave it at that.

continued...

Panarchy:

4. The strongest? Maybe just the masses, easiest way to target the masses is via the media. So all we need to get is publicity for the documentary, everything should fall into place after that.

 

Propaganda of the deed is meant for the masses. Reaching out to people one on one is meant for the most receptive of the groups. Also, ironically enough. the mainstream media will do everything in its power to deride and deligitamise the documentary. I hope that helps.

PS: The reason I had to make this a two parter is because of this weird software. It's annoying at times.

I don't know if anybody mentioned this, but the libertarian movement lacks novels to support it-symbolically that is. We need another Atlas Shrugged (though shorter would be better to meet the short timespans of most people) or The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress-something the public can get a grasp of and would be inspired by in some way. 

Luis Buenaventura:

Btw it is a VERY crude website- I'll just leave it at that.

 

Listen, we really can't be picky...we have to every resource available to us.