What are the general thoughts on WWII here on Mises.org?
Were the Allies justified in fighting WWII?
What would have happened if the US wouldn't have gotten involved in the European theatre? Should they have?
I have always been interested in this time period, so I was curious what you guys thought on the issue. Any articles or books discussing the war from a Libertarian standpoint are very welcome.
GilesStratton: Yeah because the USSR didn't do anything to the Hungarians for example.
Yeah because the USSR didn't do anything to the Hungarians for example.
And wasn`t much different to what Hungary itself did to Rusyns, Slovaks, Serbs and Slovenes to be precise.
Marko: And wasn`t much different to what Hungary itself did to Rusyns, Slovaks, Serbs and Slovenes to be precise.
Marko:Do you ever tire of placing words into my mouth?
I'm not putting words into your mouth at all.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
And I appreciate it.
Marko: I don`t really care much for WWII from the Western perspective. Should UK and USA have joined the war? I don`t care, probably not, from their perspective.But it does irk me is when folks like Buchanan make Nazi and Soviet occupations of Eastern Europe to be equivalent. It simply isn`t so. It is not at all true that for example the war achieved nothing at all for Poland because it stil ended occupied, since Poland and Polish people were in a much worse position under the Nazi occupation than as vassals of the Soviets. Yes, Soviet regime was brutal, but most of its brutality was turned inwards towards the Soviet peoples themselves. The Nazi brutality on the other hand was for the most part not turned against Germans, but against occupied Eastern Europe.
I don`t really care much for WWII from the Western perspective. Should UK and USA have joined the war? I don`t care, probably not, from their perspective.But it does irk me is when folks like Buchanan make Nazi and Soviet occupations of Eastern Europe to be equivalent. It simply isn`t so. It is not at all true that for example the war achieved nothing at all for Poland because it stil ended occupied, since Poland and Polish people were in a much worse position under the Nazi occupation than as vassals of the Soviets. Yes, Soviet regime was brutal, but most of its brutality was turned inwards towards the Soviet peoples themselves. The Nazi brutality on the other hand was for the most part not turned against Germans, but against occupied Eastern Europe.
So does that fact justify the US and the Allies from intervening on behalf of Poland?
sirmonty:So does that fact justify the US and the Allies from intervening on behalf of Poland?
No, the evil of war with Germany to prevent possible massacres in Poland obviously did not result in any good at all for Poland. As stated above, the attrocities commited in occupied nations were made ever more brutal because of the fact there was a war going on.
Pus, with a bit of a non sequitur, Poland even took a portion of Czechoslovakia when Germany seized the Sudetenland.
Abstract liberty, like other mere abstractions, is not to be found.
- Edmund Burke
sirmonty: So does that fact justify the US and the Allies from intervening on behalf of Poland?
States aren`t justfied in anything. The least of which is intervening in wars an ocean away.
laminustacitus: No, the evil of war with Germany to prevent possible massacres in Poland obviously did not result in any good at all for Poland. As stated above, the attrocities commited in occupied nations were made ever more brutal because of the fact there was a war going on.
Germany lost the war. Thus Nazi brutality against Poland actually stopped. Had Germany not lost the war the it would *not* stop. We never saw the worst Nazis were capable of, because they were defeated before they could implement most of their vision.There is no telling what `social engineering programme` the Nazis would enact in Poland in the safety of having won the war. They had every intention of destroying the Polish as a people.
They just as a rule did not put into motion those of their plans that would the most drasticaly harm their war effort. Eg, instead of staying true to their untermenschen doctrine they actually in some cases tried to cosy up to them and even recruit them for divisions of Waffen SS (not to be confused with Waffen SS divisions).
So in many cases occupied Eastern Europe was actually spared by the worst the Nazis had in mind by the fact there was stil a war going on and thus Germany could not afford to harm her war efforts by putting into motion designs such as Generalplan Ost, because dealing with the backlash would divert resources from the front.
Marko: sirmonty: So does that fact justify the US and the Allies from intervening on behalf of Poland? States aren`t justfied in anything. The least of which is intervening in wars an ocean away.
So the Allies were supposed to just let Nazi Germany go through with conquering Eastern Europe? You yourself said Eastern Europe would have been worse under the Nazis. Did the Allies choose the lesser of two evils?
Show me one claiming a just war and I show you a liar.
sirmonty: So the Allies were supposed to just let Nazi Germany go through with conquering Eastern Europe? You yourself said Eastern Europe would have been worse under the Nazis. Did the Allies choose the lesser of two evils?
Marko:Libertarians don`t deal in lesser evils, else we would love democracy.
I understand that, but what of the critics who hold that letting evil flourish is an immoral act in of itself.
Actually, I partially feel that way in many instances. If I saw someone being raped, I would intervene to stop such immorality.
What did the Allies do for Eastern Europe anyway? When the mayority of the German military was busy invading Poland, on the Rhine the French had the Germans outnumered at least 2 to 1. Instead of taking advantage of that to move and occupy the industrial heartland of Germany in Ruhrland they sat on the Maginot line playing "Phony War".Then in midst of the most gigantic and vicious battles the world had ever seen taking place on the Eastern Front they sat back and watched. Only opening a second front worthy of its name in June 1944, lest they bring themselves into a position they would be meeting the Soviets in Paris rather than in Berlin.But oh yes, in the mean time they encouraged Yugoslavs to break off the free transit agreements their government had been pressured into signing with Hitler and then watched and did nothing as the country found itself a target of an invasion in retaliation. But non the less being heartened by the knowledge they had dragged Germans into a quagmire, which could only come about at the expense of civilian suffering in Yugoslavia.
Yes I certainly agree that the West did very little for Eastern Europe.
sirmonty: I understand that, but what of the critics who hold that letting evil flourish is an immoral act in of itself. Actually, I partially feel that way in many instances. If I saw someone being raped, I would intervene to stop such immorality.
Yes mate, but it is impossible to combat evil while commiting it. You can not fight immorality via immoral means, because then you are fighting morality not for morality.You would stop a rape that was taking place in front of you, but would you hunt down 50 men with families, brainwashed them in your dungeon and then sent them to patrol the streets looking to stop rapes from taking place?
sirmonty: Yes I certainly agree that the West did very little for Eastern Europe.
Marko: sirmonty: I understand that, but what of the critics who hold that letting evil flourish is an immoral act in of itself. Actually, I partially feel that way in many instances. If I saw someone being raped, I would intervene to stop such immorality. Yes mate, but it is impossible to combat evil while commiting it. You can not fight immorality via immoral means, because then you are fighting morality not for morality.You would stop a rape that was taking place in front of you, but would you hunt down 50 men with families, brainwashed them in your dungeon and then sent them to patrol the streets looking to stop rapes from taking place?
Indeed I would not.
sirmonty: Yes I certainly agree that the West did very little for Eastern Europe. Yes, the Western governments were in it for their own reasons. Not for any altrustic reasons. And they were in it for reasons that were not worthy of the sacrafices they made their citizens bear.It was a "good war" in a sense that had it been fought as a privately funded war and for the right reasons then hordes of people would contribute their funds or bodies voluntarily, but that doesn`t justify dragging those that would not by force and for all the wrong reasons to boot.
I agree with this.
Marko:There is no telling what `social engineering programme` the Nazis would enact in Poland in the safety of having won the war. They had every intention of destroying the Polish as a people.
I disagree, without the intervention of the allies, Hitler would have been removed from power far quicker.
GilesStratton: I disagree, without the intervention of the allies, Hitler would have been removed from power far quicker.
A historical fact is that the anti-Hitler plots only came to the forefront once the tide of war had turned against Germany.